Benzodiazepine use with the recovering alcoholic. Wise? Or foolish?

Glenns · Veteran Member

Benzodiazepine use with the recovering alcoholic. Wise? Or foolish?

bikerbill · MIP Old Timer

Get medical advice. I don't have a degree in medicine and I'm not a doctor so the only advice I can give is see your doctor, explain the issue, explain that you are a recovering alkie and go from there.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

I cannot tell you what to do, but yes, I have taken them and do still take them at 1 year sober. I have been weaning down off them for this whole year as I have had the diagnoses of "Generalized Anxiety Disorder" and "Major Depressive Disorder" for over 12 years. I used to abuse the anti-anxiety meds I had along with drinking insane amounts. Now I just take as prescribed or less. My therapist and psychiatrist are aware of my being in AA. I will eventually stop taking that medication completely in all likelihood, but it has not interfered with me working the steps or my program. It has taken greater discipline to not take those meds over the perscription than it has to actually avoid alcohol. I have those pills on hand so when the crap has hit the fan over this past year, I have wanted to stop the anxiety with that medication but never allowed myself to take over what was prescribed because that would be a relapse to me. I defined it that way from the start and it remains that way for me. I will have a panic attack before taking more than what is prescribed to me with regards to the Klonopin I am prescribed. So...other people might not agree with it...but other people aren't me so they can suck it if they have a problem with it lol. The only things to watch out for are:

1. Are you really going to be able to avoid taking those pills over prescription?
2. Will having the pills around cause a relapse for you?
3. Are you okay with your own feelings about taking them and being in recovery?

I wouldn't recommend taking them if you aren't already. There are other meds for anxiety that are less mood altering on the spot. For me...I am probably gonna wean down some more because I only notice anxiety when I don't take those meds rather than that they actually help when I have anxiety. In other words, it's just another stupid addiction like cigarettes to me. Those pills never make me feel high...only normal. Maybe that is what they are supposed to do for me. I dunno. I leave it up to my psychiatrist and therapist at the moment.

Mark

Reffner · Senior Member

I was struck by a comment you made in your post :

"Also, and more importantly, can the benzodiazepine be thought of as an acceptable substitute for the recovering alcoholic?"

I have to ask, what are you trying to substitute it for? If it's a substitute for alcohol then I say absolutely not. For me as an alcoholic it's the reasons I'm using that matter. If I'm taking a medication prescribed by a Doctor, and follow directions I'm doing it for the right reasons. If, on the other hand, I start taking ANY substance because I feel like I can't cope or need an "escape" then I've relapsed. If I start taking a drug to take the place of the way alcohol made me feel, I may as well go back to my drug of choice, which was alcohol. In the later years of my active using I started using heroin, because it made me feel the same way alcohol did. I justified this by telling myself "good for you Brian, your not drinking as much as you use to". That's the nature of my disease. Any substance that makes me feel like I did when I was drinking is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS for me, and I will avoid it at all costs. I, like many others was diagnosed as being bi-polar about 8 years ago. 6 months ago I put all drugs down along with my alcohol, and never looked back. It's been hard, but worth it for me. The mood swings and anxiety have diminished, and I find I can cope easier now that I'm sober. Just my thoughts. Talk to a Doc as was mentioned, pray about it, and seek counsel with a sponsor or someone who may have similar experiences.
Brian

Avril G · Senior Member

Some good advice here, and I know many members would tell you that, 'You can't take those if you want to stay sober', which is the worst advice I've ever heard. IF these are prescribed by a doctor, AND you take them as prescribed, then there is no problem with using the programme to stay sober, and using medication to correct other disorders as medically diagnosed.

I am sure that most of us (certainly I have) have abused prescription drugs before getting sober, and it is foolish of anyone who refuses medication prescribed for other illnesses just because we are sober.

If you saw my bag of 'goodies' I leave my doctors with every month you would think I ws supplying the whole street, BUT these are drugs for Heart/Lung Disease (COPD) a bowel probem (Diverticular disease) and fibromyalgia which is a nightmare to live with, and I know without a shadow of a doubt if I didn't take the meds, which are analgesics and antidepressant muscle relaxants, I would not be able to get out of bed each day.

I don't think when we get diagnosed with other illnesses in sobriety we should be a martyr and suffer the illness for the sake of taking tablets. The key words are as prescribed which means taken regularly, so the build-up effect brings about constant pain relief, whereas before I found the programme, I would take 4 headache tablets just in case I got a headache.

Ask your group for the leaflet 'The AA member and prescribed medication' for more suggestions and info.

Jerry F · MIP Old Timer

Aloha Glenns...Taken without alcohol is important for me as alcohol has creates
a synergistic affect at times which can and will multiply the affect from other drugs.
Benzodiazephine is a CNS depressant that causes relaxation...so is Tangueray on
the rocks with an olive and an onion or for that matter San Miguel of any flavor.
A pint of Ron Rico 151 was probably the most powerful, "right here" "right now"
muscle relaxant I've experienced and then it never did matter the label or the
color of the bottle.   When I was under a neurosurgeon's care he pulled me off of
all of these types of prescriptions because I was carrying too heavy a load and
not arriving at the affect that other prescribers were hoping to see from my body.
His solution to absolutely no useage? "Learn to live with the pain". I did and the
benefits are awesome.   At the time I was on valium, percodan, percoset, darvon
and darvoset I was also drinking and running over two miles a day with a spinal
injury. Doesn't that somehow or where fit within the picture of insanity?   A few
years ago I broke my resistance to prescribed medicine by a psychiatrist and
over came my awareness that I am alcoholic and will be affected in ways that
include being non-available for my own life and safety. I went into it with "well
maybe after years of sobriety" I could be wrong.   I wasn't. After my wife clued
me in about how I was walking down the hallway of our house I quit cold turkey.
I called the psyMD and told him I was coming off and he pleaded for me not to
because withdrawal should be under the doctors care.   I've been in withdrawal
before and know what parts of it are real and not real. I knew that not reacting
and patience would get me through it. Since these were CNS doping chemicals
the first things I had to let past were the voice and the feeling that my CNS was
about to explode...both not real and then the next step and the next and the
next until it was all over.   I am currently on meds for sleep deprivation and not
always.   It is my responsibility and I know that there is no perfection and at times
not even a normal. I have to be willing to accept the consequences, keep within
the program and influence of my Higher Power and reality of my situations.

Do your homework on your prescriptions. How you feel, how you think, how you
act and how you want things to be. Keep up with the guidance say no when you
really don't want to and yes went you mean yes and be responsible always.

In Support smile

SteveP · MIP Old Timer

Lots of great advice on this thread. Like Bikerbill says, most importantly speak to your doctor and as Avril says, stick with what it says in the prescription.

I know an AA online at another forum who said when he heard someone in his home group say to a newcomer "you have to get off of your antidepressants to be in AA...stop taking them", or something like that. He patiently asked the person giving that advice if they had a licence to practise medicine in that state. He said that they said no. He then pointed out that it was an offence to give medical advice in that state without a medical licence. Loved that one!

-- Edited by SteveP on Friday 9th of October 2009 06:38:54 PM

Glenns · Veteran Member

Reffner wrote:

I was struck by a comment you made in your post :

"Also, and more importantly, can the benzodiazepine be thought of as an acceptable substitute for the recovering alcoholic?"

I have to ask, what are you trying to substitute it for? If it's a substitute for alcohol then I say absolutely not. For me as an alcoholic it's the reasons I'm using that matter. If I'm taking a medication prescribed by a Doctor, and follow directions I'm doing it for the right reasons. If, on the other hand, I start taking ANY substance because I feel like I can't cope or need an "escape" then I've relapsed. If I start taking a drug to take the place of the way alcohol made me feel, I may as well go back to my drug of choice, which was alcohol. In the later years of my active using I started using heroin, because it made me feel the same way alcohol did. I justified this by telling myself "good for you Brian, your not drinking as much as you use to". That's the nature of my disease. Any substance that makes me feel like I did when I was drinking is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS for me, and I will avoid it at all costs. I, like many others was diagnosed as being bi-polar about 8 years ago. 6 months ago I put all drugs down along with my alcohol, and never looked back. It's been hard, but worth it for me. The mood swings and anxiety have diminished, and I find I can cope easier now that I'm sober. Just my thoughts. Talk to a Doc as was mentioned, pray about it, and seek counsel with a sponsor or someone who may have similar experiences.
Brian

Why are you struck when I'd use Xanax as a substiute for alcohol? Wasn't that the reason I started drinking? To control my social anxiety?

Also, benzodiazepines, contrary to goverment belief, are at worst a mere habit--not a life-destroying molecule like ethol alcohol. My proof to this assertion speaks up at tevery AA meeting you and I have ever attended; in other words, you heard tons of people talk about their alcoholism, or there Meth addictions. You even heard about the occasional pain-killer addict. But in my extensive history in AA, I HAVE NEVER HEARD ANY MEMBER COMPAIN ABOUT A bNZODIAZEPINE ADDICTION! Can a dependence and withdrawal occur with chronic Benzo use? Of cours! But dependence and withdrawal is not the same as a bona-fide addiction.

I created in more detail about the matter in an anxiety forum. It's a long read, but please read it! Here it is:

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f30/can-someone-answer-me-these-questions-about-meds-benzos-etc-72520/

-- Edited by Glenns on Friday 9th of October 2009 08:59:20 PM

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

I have heard people complain about benzo addiction and have heard of people going to rehab for it. When I was drinking, I abused the hell out of those drugs and used them as a supplement to alcohol and also to remove some of the consequences of alcohol (shaky hands, hangovers). Now I have to be honest and take a look at my mental health and how much I truly need those drugs for my mental health. It is not an acceptable substitute for alcohol. Don't get drawn into an argument over semantics. If I used the benzos as a substitute for alcohol (meaning in the same way I used alcohol), I would take 10 a day...be high all the time and screw my whole life up. That could be done with benzos and that is why I am vigilant to NOT make them a substitute for alcohol. The way I drank was so destructive and awful and it interfered with me taking my meds the right way and them even working. So it's an age old argument about medications and being in AA... Don't get drawn into it.

Reffner · Senior Member

Pinkchip hit it right on. I was in rehab with a girl who's ONLY addiction was to benzo's. Some of the worst withdraws I've ever seen. I was taught that it's not about what the make up of the drug is, it's what's in them that "reacts" with our allergy. When a person who has the disease of addiction takes any form of mood altering chemical it reacts differently than it would with someone who has no disease. That's why in the very early days of AA we described ourselves has being allergic to alcohol. You say you drank to cope. Now you say your ready to give up the alcohol as a coping mechanism and replace it with benzo's to cope. If your doctor prescribes them, and you follow orders, I see no problem. If on the other hand your simply replacing the alcohol with benzo's, that's not sobriety or recovery. When alcohol stopped doing what I wanted it to do for me, I substituted with heroin. I know, heroin is not the same thing as benzo's, but it wasn't about what the drug was, it was the reason for taking it. It still made me feel all "warm and gooey" inside, and I told myself "hey, I'm hardly drinking anything now...Good for Brian". That's how my disease works on me. The only thing about your post that worried me was your use of the word "substitute". I took that to mean "can I take prescription drugs IN PLACE of alcohol and still have sobriety?" Maybe I'm not getting it. If not, please help me understand. Just my opinion, which isn't worth much :)!
Brian

Just Toni · MIP Old Timer

Hi Glenns,

First want to say I have absolutely no opinion on what you are taking or not taking - that is strickly between you and your Doctor.

At first, I made a decision I would not "pipe" into this discussion, but changed my mind, and wanted to offer my own experience with the use of Benzodiazipines.

My story with these drugs began when I had a serious Prowler Problem in a little house where I lived with my two children. My own Doctor, that was very conservative, insisted I take one everynight so I could get some sleep. I was not sleeping at all, and was working too, and taking care of my two children as a single Mom.

Well I will end this part of the story with about 6 months later I met my Second husband, and after being on these 5 mg. a day Valiums, my children were at an age when they wanted now to go live with their Dad, and my soon to be second husband said, well why not just move in with me. I did that, and of course the need for the Valium simply was not there. But the gigantic problem I faced was that now I was "hooked" and when I would try to not take any, the anxiety was so intense, I would cave and have one.

The addiction to Valium I felt ashamed of, so I hid it from my new husband. And also my drinking had started to really escalate. After about three years of marriage, i went into this Recovery Home for Women, for Alcohol abuse, and now I had the dilemma of how I am going to keep doing my secret stash of Valium??? My solution, I made little slits in the skirts I took with me, and stuffed them into the hems of these skirts. Talk about sicker than others.

Then i was allowed to take my laundry home on Sundays, after a 10 day restriction, and that was perfect in my sick head, for i could replenish my Valiums in my hems.

I got out of the Recovery home, and did start doing a ton of newcomers meetings. and I loved them all. However I was not able to hold on to any length of time in abstinance.

At that point I moved, with my Husband to the State of Washington, and when I met my new Doctor in Seattle, I asked him to write me an Rx for the Valium that I had now taken for almost 6 years, still secret, and his response to me, was, well I will give you one 30 day Rx. But Toni, I will not become your new drug dealer. So I made a decision to not shop for another doctor and face the Music at last, and get off, once and for all this Rx.

I did not know what I was in for, and I decided one afternoon to do this cold turkey and threw out about 25 of the remaining pills, flushed them down the toilet. I cannot even put into words what came next, it was the most horrible thing to date, that I have ever experienced. I did buy and read a copy of "I am Dancing as Fast as I can" This was a true story of a famous TV anchor person, that had done exactly what i had done, made a decision to go off, cold turkey. All of what I experinced was in that book, except she was finally institutionized, for a nervous breakdown, and released, and I was much luckier than that, I came real close, but no nervous breakdown happened. I have heard it said, that withdrawal from these is very simaliar to getting off Heroin. I could sure relate to that, then.

Even to this day, like yesterday when I read the title of your Post, I just moved away from the thought, immediately, for my memory of same is still there in my head. and for anyone that has done that one cold turkey, they know what I am saying.

The importance of the weaning off is so very critical, and should you ever decide to stop the use, my only plea to you would be, Never ever under any circumstances, attempt to do this on your own, without close medication supervision.

Ok, that is all i had to say, just wanted you to know my own personal reaction to even that word.

Dont believe I have seen you here before, and I wanted to say a big Welcome to you. And hope so much that we will see more of you.

I do know Mark just posted that you should not take any of these responses to heart, it is surely between you and your Doctor. I agree 10000%, just wanted to tell you of my own experience. that was all.

A Big welcoming Hug, Toni

-- Edited by Just Toni on Saturday 10th of October 2009 10:30:14 AM

Aquaman · MIP Old Timer

Glenns,

First off...WELCOME TO MIP!!!! We're glad you stopped in and shared your concern. We're here for you. Come back often! We never close and unlike a cookies & coffee meeting, you can attand this meeting naked if you want.

My .02 - Oh, I don't know what the heck Benzodayinthephillipines is.
My sponsor said to me on day one, "If you're taking any kind of anti-anxiety or anti-depressants, stop." I said "No. Does that mean I need to find a new sponsor?" He said "No, but be careful."

I live in a small town and my doctor is also my friend and sometimes a client, too. We use the same tattooist.

We've been through a LOT, for a doctor/patient. He knows I'm in AA and is very happy for me. We are three months into a one-year plan that we agreed upon when I entered AA. I'm taking Citalopram & Alprazolam. Every month when I refill I reduce my daily dose by approx. 15% (1/2 a tab). The plan is to replace the need for anxiety & depression meds with appropriate coping skills over the course of a year. When I'm down to 15% or so of my original scrip, we'll do another full depression screening and go from there. If ANYTHING hinky comes up during that time (fit of rage, suicidal thoughts, crying jag for no reason, etc.) - I call him and go see him.

So, my .02 is to talk to your doctor, tell him what's up and go from there.
Glad we could be here for you and keep coming back!

Avril G · Senior Member

SteveP wrote:
I know an AA online at another forum who said when he heard someone in his home group say to a newcomer "you have to get off of your antidepressants to be in AA...stop taking them", or something like that.
-- Edited by SteveP on Friday 9th of October 2009 06:38:54 PM

I also knew a guy on an online AA site who took notice of what the guy said about stopping his meds. Now, this guy was a paranoid schizophrenic and also had meds for 2 other mental health problems, so to stop the meds without weaning off was dangerous, in fact coming off them at all was dangerous for him, and this was proved when we heard from a relative of his that he had sprayed his house and car with graffiti from spray paint cans, stripped himself, then headed to the nearest high rise building from where he believed he could fly, so took a leap.

The guy was a very successful and higly praised artist, with his own art studio. This is why no-one shold tell anyone to take/not take medications, we're not doctors, and even the doctors in AA are not qualified to suggest this.

-- Edited by Avril G on Sunday 11th of October 2009 06:29:20 PM

ljc · MIP Old Timer

Hi Glen, ,welcome !

I remember my last drunk. I remember how scarred I was. I also remember thinking that I was gonna have to take something to get me thru , cuz I was done with booze. ,
Prior to my last drunk I had done the 30, 60, 90 day shuffle in and out the doors of AA meetings. longest I stayed sober was 7 months at one time.
Prior to those 2 yrs, I had been to several diff doctors complaining of depression. They put me on every diff kind of anti-depressant that was on the market at that time.
None of them worked cuz I was still drinking at that time. ( not knowing the whole time that it was the booze that was really the depressant ).
Then I went to my doctor again, cuz somebody had told me about this drug called xanax, it was for anxiety. I thought great !! I'll take a pill, and wont have to drink. My doctor knew I was alcoholic, but reluctantly wrote me a script. I didnt abuse them, cuz Im not a pill popper, Im a boozer.

But I still didnt stop drinking, and then eventually cuz I wanted to get higher I was mixing a 1/2 pill with my drinking which wasnt good .

Anyhow, to make a long story short, when I was about 3 months sober ( after my last drunk ) I was worried and thought I needed something to help get me thru the ruff times. I talked to my sponsor about it. I was even gonna take this otc stuff that was good for your liver and a mood enhancer, lol.
My sponsor said to me ... " Why dont you try using God, and the 12 steps to help you get thru and if you still feel like you need something after one year, then by all means see your Doctor ".
I told her, Okay. I'll do it. That was 5 yrs ago and I have not felt the need to take anything. Well thats not exactly true .. I have thought about it , but not acted on it.
All I need is God, the steps, the fellowship, the daily readers and my sponsor to make it one day at a time.

This has been and is my experience Glenn. My hope for you is that you find what you need to do for you. God bless You. Friends in the fellowship.

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

Reffner wrote:

Pinkchip hit it right on. I was in rehab with a girl who's ONLY addiction was to benzo's. Some of the worst withdraws I've ever seen. I was taught that it's not about what the make up of the drug is, it's what's in them that "reacts" with our allergy. When a person who has the disease of addiction takes any form of mood altering chemical it reacts differently than it would with someone who has no disease. That's why in the very early days of AA we described ourselves has being allergic to alcohol. You say you drank to cope. Now you say your ready to give up the alcohol as a coping mechanism and replace it with benzo's to cope. If your doctor prescribes them, and you follow orders, I see no problem. If on the other hand your simply replacing the alcohol with benzo's, that's not sobriety or recovery. When alcohol stopped doing what I wanted it to do for me, I substituted with heroin. I know, heroin is not the same thing as benzo's, but it wasn't about what the drug was, it was the reason for taking it. It still made me feel all "warm and gooey" inside, and I told myself "hey, I'm hardly drinking anything now...Good for Brian". That's how my disease works on me. The only thing about your post that worried me was your use of the word "substitute". I took that to mean "can I take prescription drugs IN PLACE of alcohol and still have sobriety?" Maybe I'm not getting it. If not, please help me understand. Just my opinion, which isn't worth much :)!
Brian

great post Brian. Many addicts have complained about the severity of "benzos" and the withdrawals on our NA board. The OP can go there and search for threads about it.

SteveP · MIP Old Timer

Avril G wrote:

SteveP wrote:
I know an AA online at another forum who said when he heard someone in his home group say to a newcomer "you have to get off of your antidepressants to be in AA...stop taking them", or something like that.
-- Edited by SteveP on Friday 9th of October 2009 06:38:54 PM

I also knew a guy on an online AA site who took notice of what the guy said about stopping his meds. Now, this guy was a paranoid schizophrenic and also had meds for 2 other mental health problems, so to stop the meds without weaning off was dangerous, in fact coming off them at all was dangerous for him, and this was proved when we heard from a relative of his that he had sprayed his house and car with graffiti from spray paint cans, stripped himself, then headed to the nearest high rise building from where he believed he could fly, so took a leap.

The guy was a very successful and higly praised artist, with his own art studio. This is why no-one shold tell anyone to take/not take medications, we're not doctors, and even the doctors in AA are not qualified to suggest this.

-- Edited by Avril G on Sunday 11th of October 2009 06:29:20 PM

Thanks Avril. Tragic. A really good reminder that the Fellowship should be about us helping each not to drink alcohol one day at a time, not giving each other medical advice, potentially illegally. Heck, there's at least one doc I've met in the rooms and even that person would NEVER give advice other than anything based on that person's own Experience, Strength and Hope.

I think that in so far as it is relevant to whether we go back onto the booze, IMHO the ESH of others who have taken pills/come off of pills is OK for the rooms, provided that it's made clear that it's their ESH, not medical advice or even worse, orders from a sponsor.

-- Edited by SteveP on Monday 12th of October 2009 11:47:27 AM

taoskier · Newbie

According to Bill Wilson, the only goal of AA is freedom from alcohol. If you feel you need freedom from something else join or start another program.

sobercanbegreat · Newbie

Hi Everyone,

I have some personal experience with this topic and want to share.

I have been sober now for many years and have taken clonazepam throughout my sobriety. The question of honesty regarding taking this medication while being "sober" has come up before, here are a few thougths:

There is a difference between addiction and physical dependence - you can be physically dependent, but not addicted. I think of the "4 C's" of addiction: Loss of Control over use, continued use despite harmful Consequences, Compulsion to use, and Craving. With me, all these for c's applied when drinking, but only maybe craving for clonazpam if I miss a dose.

An experience: I once began taking Gravol for sleep because I was working midnights and could not sleep during the day (Graval has a strong side effect of drowsiness).  We agreed that there was nothing wrong with taking the Gravol to sleep because...as he put it.. "what's the alternative...you don't sleep and can't perform work properly?". I took the Gravol for about a year without any guilt, then went on afternoons. Once on afternoons, I found myself still taking it to sleep....I realized I didn't need to, felt guilty, and so I stopped. My conscience told me that the intent to use it was now a want, not a need.

There is a group conscience and there is your own conscience. As for me, I was always a very nervous/paranoid person and I do believe that I have an anxiety disorder - it runs in the family with me. For many years now, I've taken the same dose of clonazepam and it lessons paranoia.

I want to live a good life.  Clonzapam helps with the anxiety, although it is not a substitute for alcohol...if that were the case, I wouldn't need AA meetings. AA meetings are the substitue for alcohol. My philosophy is if it ain't broke, don't fix it. For so long, I suffered from anxiety, then alcoholism, and now I'm treating both. I have some experience working in the mental health field and I can say that, without a doubt, medication is a very important part of treatment for those who have a severe mental illness such as schizophrenia.

At the end of the day, I'm ok with taking clonazepam while calling myself a sober alcoholic because my intent is not to get high, it's to treat an underlying anxiety.

My suggestion to you: let you conscience be your guide. It's the best advice you'll ever get.

I wish everyone another day of sobriety....