Hi, My homegroup is in northeast Iowa (pop. 8000 with two Lutheran churches) and a member of our group brought up a concern to me, on the side. He's "out" gay and feels okay talking to me because while I'm straight, I'm not narrow. The issue he brought forth was about the strong Christian overtones of AA and how it turns some people away; Jews, Gays, non-demonitational Faithfuls, etc. I expressed that step two & three are "as I understand Him/It".
Many of you here are in groups in bigger cities or places that have multi-cultural members. We're pretty white-bread in this area. I'm not a native. I have lived in much more diverse communities and can certainly see where he's coming from.
When I learned that my HP truely had to be a God of my understanding I did not allow anyone else that responsibility. I've listened to and watched many faith or understanding demonstrations during my years of recovery. Its acceptable. What isn't acceptable for me is trying to impose my own concepts of God and I understanding God and my religious practices upon someone who's greatest need is to get sober.
You got it right, it's God as I understand him. My understanding may be different to everyone elses.
So, the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking - says nothing about getting religion of any kind.
and Principles before Personalities - to me means that AA does not disbar anyone from membership on the grouds of their race, religion, politics, sexual orientation, mode of dress, preferred means of transport, favourite musician, being a vegetarian, rotarian, prince or pauper in fact see above.
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It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you got. BB
I was told in early days, 'whatever your religious leanings are, leave it at the door, this isn't a religious organisation, though we do encourage our members to find a 'Higher Power' or God of their own understanding'.
The following GOD acronyms helped me
Group Of Drunks Good Orderly Direction Grow Or Die and my own personal favourite - Gift Of Desperation
If you cannot find a God of your understanding right now, it might help to know that You're NOT IT. Don't search too hard, He/She or it ain't lost.
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Serenity is Wanting what you have, not having what you want
Always remember non-alcoholic beers are for NON-ALCOHOLICS
Hey AM, I have found AA'ers to be pretty supportive of a person's HP because it is sort of the "Grail" of this program. Many are fine with their HP being the God of their religion, and the founders of AA and the author of 24hrs a day were Christian, so it ends up having the Christian overtone. I am sure your friend will be fine and the members of your group will be fully supportive. Tom
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"You're in the right place. That's the door right there. Turn around."
Tell him G.A.Y. = God Adores You. I think I can speak for all gay folks by saying we didn't choose to be gay. Who would choose to be part of the last and worst openly discriminated against minority in the country? It has nothing to do with God though. I spent years of my adolescence cursing God and praying for him to undo this and for me not to be gay. I spent several other years trying to pretend I wasn't gay when I knew I was. There was a period where I was "super out" and thought of all christians as hate-mongers. Now I look at the person instead of the religion and I look at the good that comes from those religions. If you take any religion and squeeze the bullshit out of it, it boils down to community and faith and those things are wonderful. People in the center of their "religion" are spiritual (and they choose to call themselves christian, jewish...whatever) and I like those people...They are kind to me even if their religion says dumb stuff about being gay. They don't judge me because that is a greater part of every religion pretty much.
So...God made me gay and the fact that other people don't understand it is their problem. If I get judged for it...it's their problem. I don't fear it. If I had to live with it daily, I would move. Many gay people live in larger cities to avoid less understanding people and to be around higher amounts of gay people. That has always been the case for me. You could tell him to check out a Unitarian Universalist Church, a Quaker one or do what we know we are supposed to do in AA, which is find the higher power of our own understanding. You might remind your friend that we live in a largely Christian society and that is just a fact. He does not need to feel threatened that the majority of people (even in AA) wind up embracing a Christian God. Just see the person...see their message...see their heart...and religion doesn't need to be a focus. Other than that, he might buy a ticket to a "Round up" convention which are LARGE scale AA conventions for gay people. That might open his eyes up some to being sober, gay, and spiritual (of course there are some other less holy things that go on at those round ups but hey...whatever). The South Florida Round Up is every March in Miami. The Provincetown one just happened. There is another large one in Palm Springs I think called Dry Days or something. I'm guessing there may be one in Boise...but I dunno. I would also ask if he knows 1 other gay person that he looks up to in terms of being in AA and being spiritually centered. I would highly suggest he find someone like that as a sponsor or to have in his network. I personally cannot imagine having a sponsor who was not gay and I can't imagine not being able to openly discuss my life in meetings and with my sponsor. Just my thoughts.
Mark
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
Thanks a lot everyone! Your responses help me gather a perspective outside my own to share with him and hopefully put him at ease and make him feel more INcluded than EXcluded. He and his partner have the means to travel at will, so I'll mention the round-ups to him. My .02 to him (and any others with the same religion issue) is that my alcoholISM started as a god-shaped hole that I filled with hate until I could fill it with booze, etc. AA has allowed me to fill it back up again with the oldest human need outside food, shelter and sex...spirituality.
You last paragraph in your last response in this thead, hit the nail on the head.
I too, came in with a huge, dark and very painful hole on the inside, and after just working the first Three Steps, felt this gapping hole fill up, never to ever return. (I responded to another post, about a missing childhood, and the way I experienced it, as a sort of Soul Death, and this gapping hole was how it manifested that feeling in my body). And after a lifetime of not know how or what to do, Alcohol did not do it, ever, did not mean that I did not chase the Alcohol and the High to try and fill it up. It just never worked.
Then Only by the Grace of God, did I fully surrender to this Awesome Program, and in simply applying the first Three Steps, that painful inside space was beginning to heal, and never to return. It was just filling it up with Spirituality, such a simple concept, but it did require a self-willed stubborn brick headed at times, alcoholic to begin looking at life in a completely different way, not an easy task, but at the same time Possible.
How else would we be able to have the courage to go on to Step 4, and beyond.
God, as I understand God, filled that gapping hole, and removed also the heavy pain that went along with it.
Live and Let Live is a motto I have always loved.
I do hope so much that you new aquaintance or new friend will be able to overcome his concerns, sounds like your plans of speaking with him, will help him tremendously.
Thanks for adding what you did this morning. And sorry, it seems like I got a little off topic, oh well, it is, what it is.
hi Rob...i'm from a small town (4500) in sw minnesota...and i'm an alcoholic..and i'm gay...so i do 100% understand what your friend is feeling..to me AA is not a religious thing...while having a higher power is essential...his/her name does not have to be God/Goddess...i heard a man at the meeting the other night, say that he didn't care if you were black or white or man or wman or gay or lesbian drive a ford or a chevy cheer for the vikings or the packers...if you are an alcoholic and want to stop drinking, you belong here..which was a comfort to me, as i have not come out to all the members, but some know..Mark was right on when he suggested checking out a Unitarian Universalist church...they are very accepting of everyones individual beliefs...4 principles they try earnestly to adhere to are Love, Peace, Justice and Hope...and whatever you believe that helps to you try to adhere to these principles is OK..while not all UU churches are "welcoming" congregations...they are all very accepting of diverse lifestyles...(kind of sounds like i might worship my HP at a UU church, doesn't it???) lol as far as not having gay or lesbians sponsers...well Mark, in my little corner of the world, the pickin's are pretty slim...not many of us around, much less in the program...but i have found nothing but love and acceptance from the people i have met...both in and out of the program...it was nice hearing about this since it does cross my mind every time i hit a meeting...thanks for helping me to be sober, and know that i am not alone...in any aspect...take care and be safe, Rob...thanks.... Lori
We aren't going to change the mentality of everyone in a small town overnight it's enough work just to change ourselves.
My advise: 1) If you notice someone who indicates they are anti-gay, racist, sexist, have religous bias etc., we can nicely remind them that (BBook pg 84) "Love and Tolerance is our code".
2) When the opportunity arrives, you could bring up the topic of love and tolerance as it relates to people of different race,color,creed, sexual orientation etc.
I think that by bring it up in discussion, some may realize where they are wrong and may become more tolerant.
We also must be tolerant toward those who where brought up in a non-diverse small town enviornment. They are products of their enviornment and teachings. Many may just think their opinions are normal.
The orignial AA oxford teachings included absolute honesty, which means we should continually search for the truth in our thoughts and opinions.
In the Cleve. Ohio area there were more Catholic overtones in AA, in Atlanta there I notice Bible Belt overtones.
I have been to a lot of meeting in different areas, when you think about all the different influences that people bring into the rooms, it is pretty amazing that 99% of the time outside religions and prejudist are heard.
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Rob
"There ain't no Coupe DeVille hiding in the bottom of a Cracker Jack Box."
The man you made this post about, had some second thoughts about, and first have to say that I was born and raised in San Francisco, and the Gay issue was such a complete NON-issue to me when growing up, and of course because I was living in a big wonderful city, I just thought the whole country was the same.
Then at the age of 25, I made a cross country drive to the the other Coast, and other than the beauty I did see in some geographical places, I can tell you that whole trip was an over-whelming Culture SHOCK.
In all the areas I have ever lived, there has always been meetings just for the Gay Population, if that is what they have a preference for. Of course I support anyone wanted to go to any meeting. On the Christian over tone issue, wanted to share an event that happen to me. I had about 3 years, and I had my own Niece and her new Husband move into an apartment house, that I was managing at the time. Really did not know him well but did know that he was a graduate of the Baptist Seminary, and a carpenter by trade. Well on my first attempt to get to know him, I invited them both over for dinner. And they did come. Just after dinner, we sat down to just chat, and within minutes he began this lecturing to me on the Scriptures, and would not Stop. Feeling very uncomfortable, I just kept changing the subject. and finally they left. My niece was now part of his Church - A Re-Born............Church, hope I will not offend anyone.
In the following week, I visited a friend, a well known Astrologer, who had quite a following, and was well known in the community I lived in. I personally knew that he had been ordained as a Christian Minister, in his past, had three such certificates in his office, in his home.
Well I will try to not drag this out too long, but anyway, as I was leaving his house, I said, "H...........", I have a new member of my family that is sort of after me to understand that his way of thinking about the Bible and how he interrupts it is the correct way, anything else is very faulty.
He grasps both of my hands together, gets close up in my face, and said to me, "Toni, the ONLY requirement ever.. IS........... "That you love God with ALL your heart, Always!, Nothing more!"
I recall when I left his house how light as a feather I felt, for what he had said about that requirement I was already practicing all the time, everyday, in the Program of Alcoholics Anoymous.
I hope so much that your friend finds a truly comfortable place and I agree, no matter where he is, if it is in a Meeting of Alcoholic Anonymous, that he will discover that that the only requirement is a desire to not drink, one day at a time.....never anything else. That feeling is so very prevalent in all the meetings I have ever been to, no matter where in this Country.
Hugs, Toni
-- Edited by Just Toni on Friday 9th of October 2009 07:07:04 PM
Thanks a lot, ya'll! It just so happens that I go to a UU (they let me in without a PhD - can ya believe it!? and I'll ask him, his partner and their adopted son if they want to come along to a service. Turns out the kinfolk they're staying with here in town are friends of ours. Didn't even know it until I went over to pick one of my kids up from a play-date. Small town, right?
Quick edit...the Provincetown Roundup is coming up in a week or two I think so if he has time on his hands and the ability to travel... I try to keep a mix of meetings gay and straight cuz I don't live in a gay world and alcoholism is an equal opportunity offender.
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
My sponsor is gay and often attends a gay AA meeting in another small town an hour away. Tolerance is the code, and straight but not narrows are welcome of course at the gay meetings. I can imagine that it is similiar to my enjoyment of women only meetings. I asked her if based on the code of tolerance, technically, can men come to the women only meetings?! I can't remember what she said, I think since tolerance is key, if someone is in need, the hand of AA reaches out, or a group conscence might be called for. I find that as far as spirituality is concerned AA is the most open-minded group I've encountered. In my neck of the woods, people use "god of my understanding" or "HP" or G.O.D.-Group of Drunks more often than not. I've only been to one meeting where the "Our Father" prayer was used to conclude. I found that to be more overtly christian, but ultimately didn't bother me too much. In addition to the Unitarian church, locally here, there is Unity Church. I've found their services to be very open-minded and positive, if someone is looking to find a spiritual community outside of AA. At the meetings in my area, I've found AA to be the most diverse group I've ever connected with. And I can find something in common with absolutely everyone I've heard share.
-- Edited by angelov8 on Monday 12th of October 2009 01:23:00 AM
My sponsor is gay and often attends a gay AA meeting in another small town an hour away. Tolerance is the code, and straight but not narrows are welcome of course at the gay meetings. I can imagine that it is similiar to my enjoyment of women only meetings. I asked her if based on the code of tolerance, technically, can men come to the women only meetings?! I can't remember what she said, I think since tolerance is key, if someone is in need, the hand of AA reaches out, or a group conscence might be called for.
My first (and greatest) sponsor was gay and I wish that he hadn't of passed away from cancer just after I got two years (Thanks John). I don't think location is neccesarily a factor when it comes to religious zealots trying to peddle their beliefs in AA, although most do seem to be "Christians". I didn't read all the well thought out post responses here, but will say it again if its already been said to "take what you need and leave the rest" in regards to what people share in meetings. What keeps me sober might get you drunk when it comes to opinions and materials outside of AA literature. Don't get me wrong, I think it's good for us to bring in other topics and ideas as long as we preface those with... "I've found this outside of AA and it's been beneficial to my sobriety in this way....". That's a cue for people to disregard it if it doesn't agree with them. Most importantly though is to avoid picking the program apart for stuff like this. Your disease wants you to "compare out" and leave these rooms, and especially with a resentment so that it can kill you. Don't let anyone drive you from the rooms over a matter of opinion.
-- Edited by StPeteDean on Monday 12th of October 2009 08:14:39 AM
