Hi everyone. I'm ten and a half months sober and have been a christian for the last five years and I've just plucked up the courage to go back to church. But when it comes to holy communion I only take the bread from the vicar and don't take the chalice as this contains red wine. My wife seems to think just a very small sip of this wine would be okay, as this is technically the blood of christ and cannot be evil and christ would protect me. Can anybody help?
It's really bothering me as my higher power is the holy trinity (god the father, god the son and god the holy spirit) so all I am doing is sharing in the blood of my higher power. Not taking the chalice makes me feel incomplete as a christian as I am not doing what Jesus asked his followers to do in the last supper,I'm pretty certain he did not make exceptions for Alcholics in his speech! Also, alot of the prayers after communion relate to the sharing in the body and blood of christ.
I am friends with the vicar (priest / minister) and she is aware of my predicament, as I did consider asking her to bless a non alcoholic beverage, but A) it probably isn't allowed and B) its a lot more work to bless another beverage.
As a Catholic I can tell you that many masses don't even include sharing of the chalice (wine) with the congregation so how could the mass be deemed incomplete without it? I would steer clear of drinking wine, hopefully your wife will understand eventually. "Our primary purpose is to stay sober..."
Thanks mate, but my church offer holy communion three times a week and it is taking bread and wine, which is what Jesus said to do in remembrance of him at his last supper speech. So everyone goes and takes bread and wine and a blessing from the vicar, I only take the bread. But I think I know the answer. Cheers
Why not take this up with the Priest or Vicar? If drinking the wine causes you to relapse and you go back to drinking how you did before (which is likely) It's doubtful that you'll be thinking too much about attending church. I think that all involved would rather have you there sober, than the alternative. We've got to watch out for "all or nothing" thinking that perfectionism brings. Give yourself a lot of credit for being sober almost a year and attending service regularly.
In my mind, that was and is a ritual for nonalcoholics. I thought they pretty much did grape juice now at most places but shows how much I know. The higher power that you find in AA is really meant to be a deeply personal one for just you. I do think church is awesome and it is very healing to praise the god of your understanding in a community with others. With that said, I think the only entitity that this debate exists with is with your God. He loves you and he knows your purpose. God understands why you don't take the wine and what everyone else thinks really does not matter. That's just my view on it. Being part of an organized religion usually does require believing as they do, but really it is possible that for you, both the blood and the body are in that bread. As in the lord's prayer...our daily bread. In my fellowship, people started to convert that prayer and say "strength" instead of bread. I asked someone with 36 years sobriety about this and she told me that didn't make sense to her as the "bread" encompasses everything and more than just strength. Hence, that bread could be the body and the blood to you...just for you and something that only you and god understand together.
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When I came to AA. I knew very little about the disease of Alcoholism. I did't know that I had a disease. I studied the Big Book, got a sponsor and went to meetings to understand what I was dealing with. One day at a time I learned that I can't safely use alcohol at all. In the Big Book of Alcoholics on pg.22 it states "We know that while the alcoholic keeps away from drink, as he may do for months or years, he reacts much like other men. We are equally positive that once he takes any alcohol whatever into his system, something happens, both in the bodily and mental sense, which makes him virtually impossible for him to stop." With these facts and many more(12 steps)I returned to church. The priest knew I was an alcoholic and also the lady that I usually would go with knew too. She told me ahead of time that real wine was being used as communion(I was used to grape juice). She said that when it comes to my turn, I can cross my hands across my chest and that would let the priest know that I was not taking the wine. I did what she told me to do. I did take the bread. This was a wonderful experience for me. It was new and uplifting for me. For once in a long time I felt a part of a church that really showed me what God's love is about. When it came to communion again, I continued to do the same thing(not taking the wine and taking the bread). This program is awesome!
A friend had this same issue. The vicar said that taking the bread was sufficient as it represented the body of Christ which must therefore include the blood. My friend opted for a different church that used grape juice in the end, the vicar thee maintained that back in the day, the wine used would be unfermented, therefore without alcohol and that's why this particular church used grape juice.
I used to attend a church which aslo used grape juice as one of their requirements for membership of this particular church was abstinence from alcohol, drugs and tobacco.
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It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you got. BB
Aloha DP...Communion is not and was not a "party" attitude for me. It wasn't either a social event nor did it ever turn me on to anything other than practice of the rites of the Catholic Church as taught me from my birth and the probable consequences of not following up with them and the justifications for their existence. When I drank I had a totally different mindset and intention that had nothing at all to do with the religion I was born into but into the disease I came into at the same time. Although it was a "glass" of Portugese "Red" that first turned me on at the age of 9, I have never been offered a glass of the "blood of Christ" though I have tried to consume what was left after the mass as a sneaky altar boy. My believe truely is that God will not do for me what I intend to do with myself. Alittle bit of a twist on the philosophy and I never drank ever with the intention of fulfilling the will of God. I drank to drink and used the people, places, times and things to accomplish that. God was not one of them. Until I was totally done and the hangover was feeling more like a lobotomy. That's all a mental and spiritual approach. Physically there isn't enough wine and alcohol in a sip from the chalice to interest me plus I don't like the idea of maybe getting in a tug of war with the priest or assistant over it in front of family, friends, congregation and possibly a program member or sponsee or whatever. I would be humiliated to hear "Stop already" from either priest or assistant (LOL) or break out into some of my past old alcoholic reactions, "Hmmmm that's Good!" or "What label is that?". I've been known to get pretty reactive when I was practicing well. I've rarely tasted an inviting altar wine though I've known some relatives who were priest and others who got into it religiously some who made the program and others not.
Simply for me it's not the same mind set (compulsion of the mind) or enough alcohol (allergy of the body) and when I last approached the chalice I had deeply gotten into "Trust God, Clean house, and help others". I also had been relieved of the fear our program and Big Book talks about.
In support
-- Edited by Jerry F on Monday 28th of September 2009 03:20:36 PM
Doesn't sound like it Dodgyprice. For most of us, the longer that you're sober the more sensitive your body becomes. Some of us are downright allergic to alcohol. It's really not a good idea to have any. Granted it's not a lot, but the psychological aspect is that the mind can't start working with "see, you didn't react badly to that, perhaps you're not an alcoholic after all...".
What I'm saying is that the understanding I came to in my recovery was that there was a huge difference, mind, body, spirit and emotion between my practice of religion and my practice of alcoholism. I know the difference between drinking without any aspect of my higher power being present and between the presence of the Son of God in the wine at communion. In some churches they let you dip the host in the wine before taking it. Most places there is a sip...not a drink, not a gulp and for me never a wish or expectation of the effect as when I drank on purpose without even the hint of my religion in mind but maybe the guilt later.
I believe I have on a couple of occasions sipped from the chalice of the blood of the Son of God transformed from wine (mind/spirit set). On more occasions I have not. Both events were anti-climatic where my expectations were in consideration....I didn't drop into the black hole of my prior lifestyle for one and I wasn't elevated to sober sainthood on the other. In that form and in that rite it is a cause of celebration for a certain practice left to believers so that they/we could reaffirm a mutual union with God...not anything else. By the way....that is just for me.
If the ritual is a symbol between you and our Father, using my imperfect human logic I'm hoping that God would understand, know, and love whether you did or did not drink the wine. I can see how this is a dilema.
It reminds me partially of someone who traveled out of her country and described being at a podium in front of 500 guests in her honor at a special gathering. She was unexpectedly handed a tiny toast, which she was immediately supposed to lead. As she realized it contained alcohol, confusion and embarrassment reigned. There was a language barrier, it wasn't a group she expected to abruptly come out to as an alcoholic, nor explain it to. She said after 10 minutes or so she managed to ask for and receive purified water, and led the toast in that way.
I realize this isn't the same thing. Just hope it helps or is of interest to someone. Sincerely, Angelov8
Just my 2 cents here. Well first, I was baptised as a Catholic, but for reasons that don't need to be discussed this morning, I am not a practicing Catholic.
On the subject of the "sip of wine from the Sacred Chalice, my feeling are very clear, and I repeat, just my little opinion, but there is well document reports of this Disease of Alcoholism is a combination of two things, an Allergy of the Body, and a Compulsion of the Mind, right?
And going back to that old wonderful saying, " WE DON'T DRINK, NO MATTER WHAT" That has never failed, EVER to work for me.
And putting this thinking into just the 'Allergic' part of the definition of any Alcoholic. Asking you just one question, if you were highly allergic to Peanuts, and eating a minute amount could throw you into a "life threatening" reaction, would you be asking, UNDER ANY Circumstances, would it be alright to have just a sliver of just one of those peanuts??
So in line with others here having voiced just their opinions only, I am with Dean's theory, and would not have the guts to try Jerry's. It is what it IS, and these are just my little thoughts for today.
And have to add, that I have a wonderful and loving Comforting and Comfortable connection with my Higher Power, whom I choose to call God.
There never has to be a conflict here, or anywhere else, as to who has a Sacred Spiritual Life, and others that choose to have the same Sacred Religous Life. As is Stamped on our beautiful madelleons, "To Thyne Own Self - Be True!
At first, yesterday, felt it would be out of place to offer my opinion as I am not a practicing Catholic, but thought about -and changed my mind.
God Bless you dear, and Love your Sign In name. Again, welcome to this MIP Board!
If the ritual is a symbol between you and our Father, using my imperfect human logic I'm hoping that God would understand, know, and love whether you did or did not drink the wine. I can see how this is a dilema.
It reminds me partially of someone who traveled out of her country and described being at a podium in front of 500 guests in her honor at a special gathering. She was unexpectedly handed a tiny toast, which she was immediately supposed to lead. As she realized it contained alcohol, confusion and embarrassment reigned. There was a language barrier, it wasn't a group she expected to abruptly come out to as an alcoholic, nor explain it to. She said after 10 minutes or so she managed to ask for and receive purified water, and led the toast in that way.
I realize this isn't the same thing. Just hope it helps or is of interest to someone. Sincerely, Angelov8
My 2 cents.... God doesn't want us to hurt ourselves, and even moreso, he does not want us to hurt others, like we alcoholics do in our drinking times. I am sure God would understand if someone passed on the wine. It is a symbolic thing anyway. Just as the bread does not actually turn to "flesh", nor does the wine become blood.
And who knows, perhaps the actual wine that Jesus used, had some other kind of "power", and did not intoxicate, but did something else to the desciples, spiritually? We never know.... All I know is that if I drink alcohol in any quantity, I will hurt me, and I will hurt others. And God does not want that.
Joni
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~Your Higher Power has not given you a longing to do that which you have no ability to do.
Thanks Joni, what you posted is what I felt I was trying to communicate in the first paragraph of my post. I think you said it more clearly. I feel certain that God ultimately supports entirely abstaining alcoholics, and that would include not drinking the symbolic wine, because the choice not to drink it really matters to a recovering alcoholic.
Well feel just like you do, Joni said it just right, so simply put, maybe we should be using her as an Editor for MIP. well except if we all said the same thing, could get boring......Ya Think????
Looking forward to hearing from you later, ms. gator.
