Recovered vs Recovering....and I do not care which side you are on

turninggrey · MIP Old Timer

Recovered vs Recovering....and I do not care which side you are on

Reffner · Senior Member

I would have to agree that I am a recovering alcoholic. To me, it seems like to call myself "recovered" would mean that I no longer have the disease. I fear the day I think I'm recovered is the day I can give myself permission to drink, and that just can't/won't happen. I'm so very greatful to be in recovery. For me, the day I beat this thing called addiction is the day I die with it, not from it, and that day doesn't seem like such a bad thing to me now.

Brian

FlyingSquirrel · Senior Member

IMO (and I could be wrong) if you're practicing AA principles, you probably don't have an opinion on what other people should be calling themselves - you only have an opinion on what you want to call yourself.

I personally know that right now I'm recovering. Maybe at some point I'll feel that I've recovered, but I probably will just refer to myself as an alcoholic in meetings and elsewhere regardless.

Considering yourself "recovered" doesn't necessarily translate into "cured" - if you have some kind of incurable disease that you can keep in remission through some periodic action, and you no longer suffer the effects of the disease as long as you keep taking that periodic action, (many in AA say that in our case it is daily action - I would probably agree because momentum is a big thing with our disease) you might say you've recovered from the effects of the disease but are not cured.

cramcj01 · Senior Member

I'll always be recovering. I know that no matter when/where I pick up that next drink.....even if it's 50 years from now, I will be right back where I started. My ex told me that that is being weak or setting yourself up for failure. But I know differently, at least for myself.

bikerbill · MIP Old Timer

I'm Bill and i'm an alcoholic.

I have recovered from the hopeless condition of mind and body but I'm in daily remission from the disease of alcoholism.

I am neither a recovered alcoholic, nor a recovering alcoholic.

I'm a grateful, sober alcoholic.

That's just me. you be what you want to be.

turninggrey · MIP Old Timer

Hey Bill,
I am the same way. I am a big John Lennon fan and I believe its whatever gets you through the night! Those boys are taking it pretty serious over there on the board. I always sensed a group of hard core AAers through my association with AA that used the big book like a super bible of sorts and could quote it verse and paragraph--and that is great if it keeps them sober--but many times they consider their view above others......after all......they quote paragraph and page.....totally ignoring the other tools that AA provides us with that are sometimes different than actual paragraph and page quotes from the big book. I am referring to the 24 hour a day book and workbooks sanctioned by AA. Such is life.

Whatever gets you through the night 'salright, 'salright
It's your money or life 'salright, 'salright
Don't need a sword to cut through flowers oh no, oh no
Whatever gets you through your life 'salright, 'salright
Do it wrong or do it right 'salright, 'salright
Don't need a watch to waste your time oh no, oh no
Out the blue or out of sight 'salright, 'salright
Don't need a gun to blow your mind oh no, oh no

toni baloney · Senior Member

Morning Tom,

This took me back to a conversation I had with what I once thought was a brilliant Phychiatrist, that was helping me with my family stuff that was in an unbelievable crisis. He was aware, that I attended AA Meetings regularly, and he made this statement to Me.

Toni, after 10 years, I really dont see a need for you to continue with all those meeting, you dont drink, and have grown so much in that Program, do you really think you need to CONTINUE????

At that moment, this man that i thought was brilliant, well not going to drag him into a gutter with my words, but I just looked at him and realized he knew ablsolutely nothing about the Recovery process. He always had this very authoritanian stance to himself, so I was stuck, what I wanted or needed to say to him, was just left in my head. Like when you make a bold statement like that, you should have all the facts to back it up. It just might kill someone that was in the Program for 10 years as well, but was in a more slippery place, and not into the full meaning of always recoverying. I did continue to see him, for my family crisis. But I never brought that AA subject up again.

So yes I will, with the Grace of God, always be Recoverying........let others do what ever they want.

Contrarily, when I had Insitu breast cancer, and they did the Removal and Reconstution I said just the opposite. OK, I an done with that, it will never come back again, and that was a very long time ago, and so far, so good.

I was a drunk, now I am a Grateful Recoverying Drunk, how simple that keeps it just for me. This just keeps my ego right sized, is how I see it.

Toodles Tom, and thanks for the Post, it was a great one.

Toni

-- Edited by toni baloney on Monday 13th of July 2009 09:49:24 AM

BLUESMAN · Senior Member

Hello Turninggrey
' once Alcoholic alway and Alcoholic ''
I never think to much about it ( Recovered vs Recovering )i no that if i stop living the 12 steps and praying ,,going to meetings ,,working with other '' i will drink again ,,

That is a good Topic ''Thanks turninggrey ''

Russell

turninggrey · MIP Old Timer

Ditto.

turninggrey · MIP Old Timer

Hey Toni,
Its funny you bring that up because a guy on the other board that considers himself "an expert" just PMed me and declared that he purpously "suckered me" into the argument to challenge those who think different than him, and used it as a tool to expose how we must stick to the literal interpretation of the Big Book.....blah blah blah. I actually was taking him kind of serious up to that point and it smacked me in the face that I was dealing with a sober lunatic! At least in my case I could tell him that I thought he was insane. What ever happened to "Easy does it" "Let it go" "One day at a time" "Keep it simple"?

barisax · Senior Member

turninggrey wrote:

Its funny you bring that up because a guy on the other board that considers himself "an expert" just PMed me and declared that he purpously "suckered me" into the argument to challenge those who think different than him, and used it as a tool to expose how we must stick to the literal interpretation of the Big Book.....blah blah blah.

Alcoholics... whether drinking, sober, recover(ing), recover(ed)... don't really have a monopoly on the ego trip. I used to do stuff like that, almost as far back as I can remember, I'd "sucker" people into a debate so I could... what, "expose" the fact that they disagreed with me? LOL. I can still get caught up in it, I am still an attention seeker... I was born in a family of musicians and teachers, who were all accustomed to holding center stage. I found there's no better way to get attention than to be contrary. In sobriety I've learned to laugh at this behavior in myself and others... even if I haven't completely eliminated it from my repitoire. I still do it, but at least most of the time I'm aware of what I'm doing and why.

Barisax

toni baloney · Senior Member

Hi Tom,

Well I am assuming that is the other site you were asking about about a week or so ago, so I went back and checked it out, read for about a half hour.

I recall your comment about this site, and I do agree with that comment. Interesting for sure though.

Take what you want and leave the rest. Live and Let Live, but have no need personally to go check them out daily.

My 2 Cents

Toodles, Toni

bikerbill · MIP Old Timer

turninggrey wrote:

Hey Bill,
I am the same way. I am a big John Lennon fan and I believe its whatever gets you through the night!

Whatever gets you through the night 'salright, 'salright
It's your money or life 'salright, 'salright
Don't need a sword to cut through flowers oh no, oh no
Whatever gets you through your life 'salright, 'salright
Do it wrong or do it right 'salright, 'salright
Don't need a watch to waste your time oh no, oh no
Out the blue or out of sight 'salright, 'salright
Don't need a gun to blow your mind oh no, oh no

Oh boy oh boy oh boy - another one who thinks and quotes in lyrics - fantastic! Thought it was just me!

smile

jonijoni1 · MIP Old Timer

I am not fully recovered from alcoholism. I am, however, fully recovered from a hopeless state of mind and body, just for today. I am recovered from the physical craving and mental obsession.

So my answer? Both. It depends on what I am recovering/recovered FROM.

And when I hear this kind of argument, I usually turn the other way and run. :o) But I trust that we here can handle this one like adults.

Love,
Joni

cajunhorn · Member

I'll let the Big Book answer this...

Pg. 90/Working With Others:

"Then let his family or a friend ask him if he wants to quit for good and if he would go to any extreme to do so.

If he says yes, then his attention should be drawn to you as a person who has recovered."

5th Tradition: Our primary purpose is to carry the MESSAGE to the alcoholic who still suffers.

What is that message?

First paragraph, first printing, Forward to the First Edition:

"To show others precisely how we have RECOVERED is the main purpose of this book".

There are 14 references to being "recovered" versus just 1 to "recovering" in the first 164 pages and that is used in the "To Wives" chapter to advise the wife of the newly sober husband just coming back home.

If you do the work and "recover from a hopeless state of mind and body" which means you are no longer prey to the Spiritual Malady, you "straighten out mentally and physically". What does that mean? If you do the work which inevitably leads to a spiritual experience and then continue to maintain and perfect the conscious contact which brought that to you, not only will you not have to drink, you won't even think about it. You will be "placed in a position of neutrality". The drink question becomes a non-issue and you have RECOVERED. That's not my opinion, it's what the book promises and the book hasn't lied yet.

Here's my disclaimer. If that sits crooked with anybody, then the issue is not with me, it's with Bill W., Dr. Bob, the Big Book and the original message that we are all supposed to be carrying.

All that said, if you just don't agree I still love ya and there's nothing you can do about that. wink

Peace!

P.S. Sorry for the huge font. I cut and pasted something from an online Big Book and it just came out this way from that point.

-- Edited by cajunhorn on Tuesday 14th of July 2009 12:10:00 AM

-- Edited by cajunhorn on Tuesday 14th of July 2009 12:12:28 AM

Bear350 · Newbie

For some it's going to be a life long battle, but for others it may not be.. It depends how bad the addiction was for you to get over. Mine wasn't that bad, but I have my days where a beer would really hit the spot.

turninggrey · MIP Old Timer

cajunhorn wrote:

I'll let the Big Book answer this...

Pg. 90/Working With Others:

"Then let his family or a friend ask him if he wants to quit for good and if he would go to any extreme to do so.
If he says yes, then his attention should be drawn to you as a person who has recovered."

5th Tradition: Our primary purpose is to carry the MESSAGE to the alcoholic who still suffers.

What is that message?

First paragraph, first printing, Forward to the First Edition:

"To show others precisely how we have RECOVERED is the main purpose of this book".

There are 14 references to being "recovered" versus just 1 to "recovering" in the first 164 pages and that is used in the "To Wives" chapter to advise the wife of the newly sober husband just coming back home.

If you do the work and "recover from a hopeless state of mind and body" which means you are no longer prey to the Spiritual Malady, you "straighten out mentally and physically". What does that mean? If you do the work which inevitably leads to a spiritual experience and then continue to maintain and perfect the conscious contact which brought that to you, not only will you not have to drink, you won't even think about it. You will be "placed in a position of neutrality". The drink question becomes a non-issue and you have RECOVERED. That's not my opinion, it's what the book promises and the book hasn't lied yet.

Here's my disclaimer. If that sits crooked with anybody, then the issue is not with me, it's with Bill W., Dr. Bob, the Big Book and the original message that we are all supposed to be carrying.

All that said, if you just don't agree I still love ya and there's nothing you can do about that.

Peace!

P.S. Sorry for the huge font. I cut and pasted something from an online Big Book and it just came out this way from that point.

-- Edited by cajunhorn on Tuesday 14th of July 2009 12:10:00 AM

-- Edited by cajunhorn on Tuesday 14th of July 2009 12:12:28 AM

Hey CH,
I am really fine with that. Many may wish to take the literal word "recovered" and if that works, I applaud it. What do you call the condition of never being cured? You do not have to go far to find Bill W and crew claiming that there is no cure for the disease except the lifelong treatment of the AA program. I wish there was an actual Bill W inspired term to put this concept in a better reference. I guess the point of my question was not to try and convince anyone of my position but to express disappointment with the other web site where the guys claiming "recovered" denegrating any who would use Bill W's description of "never cured" as meaning "recovering.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

Alcoholism not Alcoholwasum. Recovering and hope to always be. I don't want to ever think I have nothing left to learn from AA. I could say I recovered from "a hopeless condition...etc" but I can always learn to live a better and more spiritually enriching live so in that way, I stay recovering because that means growing. I always want to grow and learn new things to cope with life. The minute I assume I am recovered, I will think I have nothing left to learn in AA and that will hopefully never be the case. Just my thoughts on the matter.

cajunhorn · Member

turninggrey wrote:

cajunhorn wrote:

I'll let the Big Book answer this...

Pg. 90/Working With Others:

"Then let his family or a friend ask him if he wants to quit for good and if he would go to any extreme to do so.
If he says yes, then his attention should be drawn to you as a person who has recovered."

5th Tradition: Our primary purpose is to carry the MESSAGE to the alcoholic who still suffers.

What is that message?

First paragraph, first printing, Forward to the First Edition:

"To show others precisely how we have RECOVERED is the main purpose of this book".

There are 14 references to being "recovered" versus just 1 to "recovering" in the first 164 pages and that is used in the "To Wives" chapter to advise the wife of the newly sober husband just coming back home.

If you do the work and "recover from a hopeless state of mind and body" which means you are no longer prey to the Spiritual Malady, you "straighten out mentally and physically". What does that mean? If you do the work which inevitably leads to a spiritual experience and then continue to maintain and perfect the conscious contact which brought that to you, not only will you not have to drink, you won't even think about it. You will be "placed in a position of neutrality". The drink question becomes a non-issue and you have RECOVERED. That's not my opinion, it's what the book promises and the book hasn't lied yet.

Here's my disclaimer. If that sits crooked with anybody, then the issue is not with me, it's with Bill W., Dr. Bob, the Big Book and the original message that we are all supposed to be carrying.

All that said, if you just don't agree I still love ya and there's nothing you can do about that.

Peace!

P.S. Sorry for the huge font. I cut and pasted something from an online Big Book and it just came out this way from that point.

-- Edited by cajunhorn on Tuesday 14th of July 2009 12:10:00 AM

-- Edited by cajunhorn on Tuesday 14th of July 2009 12:12:28 AM
Hey CH,
I am really fine with that. Many may wish to take the literal word "recovered" and if that works, I applaud it. What do you call the condition of never being cured? You do not have to go far to find Bill W and crew claiming that there is no cure for the disease except the lifelong treatment of the AA program. I wish there was an actual Bill W inspired term to put this concept in a better reference. I guess the point of my question was not to try and convince anyone of my position but to express disappointment with the other web site where the guys claiming "recovered" denegrating any who would use Bill W's description of "never cured" as meaning "recovering.

"Never cured". Let's take a look at that. Here's the question, what am I never cured of? Here's the answer, which was given to me and many others from Paul M of Chicago whose Sponsor was Dr. Bob and who had more articles published in the AA Grapevine than any other human being on Earth. What I am not "cured" of is my constant need for a conscious contact with God. I have to have that in order to stay in a RECOVERED state. God is everything or he is nothing, right? If I can't be recovered from alcoholism then God is finite. No, what God says is, "Child, you can be recovered from the disease you suffer from, but you'll always need to stay in contact with me to remain that way." Someone saying that they can't be recovered is like a person who had a parachuting accident, but lived miraculously through an act of God and is now walking the Earth just fine saying, "but I'll always be recovering from that fall". No, you are recovered and now you need to stay SANE enough so as not to get back in that plane and jump out again. Because you have a strange mental twist, on your own power there is an extremely good chance you'll do that again UNLESS you tap into a power greater than yourself that separates you from taking that action, the same power that saved you in the first place. Now, transfer that over to the drink question. Sure, I've got the craving of the body which is activated by the first drink. If there is a power greater than myself which has given me ability to NOT TAKE THE FIRST DRINK, am I recovered? You bet I am. Now, if I disconnect from that power are all bets are off? Yes! I'm back on my own power and I tend to "jump out of planes" when running on that. Does that mean I'm off the hook to no longer "enlarge and perfect" my spiritual life? No! I need to constantly seek a better, cleaner connection with that which the POWER springs from. It's amusing that some think the two things are mutually exclusive. Thank God our founders didn't suffer from that delusion.

Again, because I am recovered and not "recovering", I now take responsibility for my life. See, if I steal from you today it's because I'm a thief, not because I'm a "recovering alcoholic". If I lie to you it's because I'm a liar, not because I'm still a "victim" of this disease. There are way too many people taking poetic license with a spiritual program that back in the '30's was producing 50 to 75 percent success rates. Now, we start to twist the words and "interpret" our own meanings and we are sitting at less than 20% success rates.

The nature of alcoholism has not changed and neither should the message. To say that "I'll always be recovering" is to say that what the book tells us is not true and is only an opinion. What's funny to me is that one of the first things someone will say when they don't agree that I should be calling myself a "Recovered Alcoholic" is that it's arrogant. I always point out that if that's the case, then Bill, Dr. Bob, and the first one hundred were some amazingly arrogant SOB's and ask them one question: "Why are you in this program and reading out of this book when you hold that opinion of the founders?" I haven't heard a sufficient answer yet. Seems to me the arrogance rests in those who think they know better than what's in black and white right there in our basic TEXT.

Again, "To show others precisely how we have RECOVERED is the main purpose of this book" and 15 other references of how they had recovered versus 1 reference to the word "recovering" beg the question, what is the truth?

All that said, my motive in writing this is not to denigrate anyone. I have one motive, carry the message as it was written and carried by Bill and Dr. Bob. It's not up to me to "interpret". I've met too many people who knew both of those guys personally and even a couple whose stories were in the First Edition and every one of them is steadfast and called themselves "Recovered Alcoholics" and they weren't lying.

-- Edited by cajunhorn on Sunday 19th of July 2009 03:52:17 PM

-- Edited by cajunhorn on Sunday 19th of July 2009 03:59:15 PM

-- Edited by cajunhorn on Sunday 19th of July 2009 04:32:29 PM

Sobrietyspell · MIP Old Timer

I like this..

~ What I am not "cured" of is my constant need for a conscious contact with God. I have to have that in order to stay in a RECOVERED state. God is everything or he is nothing, right? If I can't be recovered from alcoholism then God is finite. No, what God says is, "Child, you can be recovered from the disease you suffer from, but you'll always need to stay in contact with me to remain that way."

& this..

~ Now, if I disconnect from that power are all bets are off? Yes! I'm back on my own power

If I have any confusion around this topic it is that my connection does seem to waver at times so I can go from recovered to recovering on any given day. I think this is why we seek progress not perfection. We are fluctuating beings & by our own experience maybe this is why some of us are recovering & some of us are recovered. I don't think any of us are wrong as such. The Big Book does talk about thoroughly following this path. It is hard to thoroughly follow this path!!! But, we do try to the best of our ability. Sometimes I do consider myself as recovered but I'm not always consistent & can be refilled with fear without even realising it. It seems to be a fixture of my human condition besides, as well as or along with my alcoholism.

Maybe I'm still a fledgling & have only been doing this for the last 2.5yrs. Maybe my condition will improve with better practice. I can stay hopeful I hope! I do have a penchant for half measures & this can seem unavoidable at times with my self-will. Maybe it is my acknowledgement of the realism of my weaknesses that helps me to understand what some may refer to as recovering too. I have a compassion for it & don't wish to fight for a stance either way. I understand both. For me it can & (at times) has to, be both. I hope this makes sense. I do enjoy how you're explaining things, Cajunhorn. It helps me in the faith that if I keep doing what I'm doing it will keep on getting better & better 1Day@aTime, Danielle x