Gack! Need advice re: Rigorous honesty and my mess-up tonight.

FlyingSquirrel · Senior Member

Gack! Need advice re: Rigorous honesty and my mess-up tonight.

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

Hello Flyingsquirell and welcome to the board.

Generally speaking those issues are between you and your sponsor, but what difference does it make if you're not planning on staying sober? Or are you? NA beer is not recommended but I wouldn't call it a slip.
The unintentional drinking of someone else's beer is debatable. Question, I've not seen a bar that serves pepsi in a bottle (usually a in a cup with ice) so i would've been a pretty big difference between grabbing a cup of soda and a bottle of beer. This is the reason why, in the first year of sobriety, we need to avoid going to bars and other places that serve alcohol and ditto about hanging out with people that are drinking. It's too automatic for us and we need to make it an automatic thing Not to take a drink, and that takes time. You're probably in DUI class and they've told you that 50% of that class Will get another DUI within a year. That's a staggering statistic (pardon the pun). Here's another one for you, only 1 out of 20 people that try to get sober will make it to 1 year. This is a serious problem and it doesn't seem that your are serious about your recovery. Thant + being in the wrong place + picking up the wrong drink in probably the wrong container = you should seriously consider moving up your sobriety date.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

I wouldn't necessarily change your sobriety date. I agree with Dean about it being between you and your sponsor. With that said, I answer your questions with more questions lol. First off, do they really call the process of what you are doing "graduating?" One thing I learned is that we NEVER graduate from AA. That's not the best idea to have in your head. What I am hoping is that they mean you graduate from that mandated group and now have a program in place where you attend meetings daily on your own without being made to. If you are planning on downing your meeting attendance to 1 time per week at this point, you are not going to stay sober (just an opinion). I do know some people in my fellowship that were bartenders while getting sober. For them, it was always their career, they worked at fairly high end bars, so quitting that would have been complete destruction of their income. I only know 2 of those people in a fellowship of like 1000 though, so that might say something about a person's ability to stay sober being in that environment constantly. I guess what I am saying is, none of your questions matter so much as the answer to the question "what lengths are you willing to go to stay sober today?" The answer to that needs to be "any lengths"

toni baloney · Senior Member

Hi Flying Squirrel,

Just want to pass on a saying around the rooms of AA.

"If you keep going to the same Barber Shop, YOU will get a Haircut"

Slippery Places of any kind should in my opinion, places you want to avoid, at all cost.

Think all of this is between you and your Sponsor too, like the rest of us.

And thank you for the Rigerous honesty about all of this. That is how Sobriety starts.

Hopeing for you that this is the start of a good... long... sober life.

And WELCOME!!
Toni

Doll · MIP Old Timer

If I were you I"d be looking for another job, save some bucks and buy a karoake machine and sing at home OR even better you could find a church and sing in the choir.

Toni's correct about the barber shop! It WILL happen sooner and later.

I too wondered who serves Pepsi in a bottle anymore ? And I think you would have known it was beer before you swallowed.

Before AA became "PC" Bill W. made no exceptions. Consumption was consumption. And if it were 1939, you'd have to 'start over'.

I believe it's highly recommended to change your playground and playmates. You're playing with fire as it stands.....

IMHO, it all sounds like excuses to me. But, like I said, just my opinion.

Good luck, more meetings, and stay close to your sponsor.

FlyingSquirrel · Senior Member

Thanks to all for your responses. Lots of questions to answer..

(1) I do plan to stay sober. It was near the beginning of my sobriety, actually the first 9 weeks of it (before going to treatment or going to AA) that I had not planned on staying sober long-term. I was just trying to prove to myself and the world at that time that I was not an alcoholic - so it was before I realized that I really was an alcoholic that I drank the NA beers.

(2) I graduated to the weekly group session at the treatment place. I am still attending AA every day, although I'm only required to go twice a week as part of treatment.

(3) The beer was in a bottle and the Pepsi was in a short glass with ice - this made it even more baffling to me that I had managed to grab the wrong thing and not notice it until it was too late. I didn't look to see what I was grabbing but it should have been obvious that I was not drinking out of a straw. So yes, I should have known, but I am being completely honest when I say that I did NOT know. It was a truly baffling situation to me that something like that could happen without me realizing it in advance.

(4) I've heard the saying about barbershops. This is why I've avoided going when not on official business. And I understand the thing about being willing to go to any lengths. However, I'm not ready to just cut it out of my life completely without a further thought, I'd rather see what lengths I need to go to first. For example, I've already decided not to sing karaoke on my own. The next step might be to say, "I can judge contests, but I have to leave as soon as it is over (or as soon as it gets canceled). The next step could be, "I can't judge contests for you, it's too dangerous." The next step might be, "I can't host 4 nights a week, I can only host 2 nights and they have to be the busiest nights because on slow nights I get bored and restless, and am more tempted to drink." Then go down to 1 night. Then if I still feel that I'm in danger of relapsing, I would quit the job altogether.

So I am willing to go to any lengths - I just don't feel that I have to go to the most extreme length all at once. Karaoke really has been a big part of my life and I am not much of a church choirboy, but thanks for the suggestion. The music that I like to sing is a much different thing - however I'll keep my mind open to the possibility of getting into some other type of singing activity. And I do have my own karaoke machine - it's just in use at the bar right now (but it is not the only machine there, and they can live without it). So that is another possibility, and thanks for that suggestion as well.

I am looking for another job, and I don't want to host karaoke long-term (at least not at the level I'm doing it now). I might not mind having my own complete system and doing it on the side at wedding receptions etc. But I am definitely looking for other work that will make it possible for me to reduce my dependence on hosting for income.

-- Edited by FlyingSquirrel on Thursday 11th of June 2009 03:37:55 PM

toni baloney · Senior Member

Hi There,

Read and Re-read you response, and had some thoughts, I have never heard of just "see if I need to go to such extreme lengths" means. Well, not anymore that is.

For myself in early Recovery, (well, perhaps I should qualify my answer here, I had 10 solid and pretty miserable years of doing it my way, and relapsing so many times, I lost count well into the 3rd year) So my prespective is mine.

But when I came in or rather crawled in from the basement, I was More than Willing to do anything and everything that was suggested to me. This Disease has a Progression to it, and I recall that Progression very well. That Progression was close to taking my life. And that did not sound too bad at the time. But there is in all of us, a stronger and a very tenanous Will to LIVE. I thank God that was the case for me.

And what stuck like glue to me was the concept of PUTTING SOBRIETY IN FRONT OF EVERYTHING ELSE, NO MATTER WHAT THAT WAS. I saw it (my new sober life) as a very bright light, and if something or anyone brought a shadow into that light, I change course, and kept that bright light right in my view.

So I do hear you saying you do want to stay sober, on the one hand saying Yes, you are willing to go to any lengths, but on the other hand qualifying how extreme these lengths have to be for you today. I have brought that up a few times, because I could not get a real clear picture of what that term means to you.

When I finnally surrendered to this Program, going into a place that served liquor, for any reason under the sun, I would have been as Jen said, Playing with Fire, and can say with almost certainty, I would have been burned.

But we are speaking here of a Disease that is a deadly disease. It has its Progressions and Stages.

And I sure hope that you Know and believe that all the response here today were meant straight from the heart, WE want you to STAY Sober, and however we put it, we all want that for you, and no matter how I said it, or any other person, I believe we are trying to convey to you our own Experience Strength and Hope to you, in our own individual way. (Think I had to add that, for somewhere in your response today, maybe between the lines, I felt a little defensiveness from you.) I could be wrong, and more than anything was trying to explain in my own inept way what
I was trying to convey from my heart to you.

A Big Hug to you my new friend,
Toni

Needed to come back and add one more thing: ..... A DRINK... is the very LAST PART of a A SLIP.......

-- Edited by toni baloney on Thursday 11th of June 2009 07:10:27 PM

Doll · MIP Old Timer

The problem with a relapse is we don't see it coming! We see it clear as day in hindsight! So, if you don't see the 'danger' all ready, well...........

"Any lengths" is not extreme. I would DEFINATELY quit a job for sobriety. I left a husband for it! I've also had to turn my back on my son because I AM willing to go to any lengths.

If I'm not sober none of it matters anyway.

I hate to say it, but you're setting yourself up for that relapse.

Prayers and hugs........

Sobrietyspell · MIP Old Timer

Welcome to MIP, Glenn. I don't have any great advice re your sobriety date. I don't know how I'd see it if I'd had non-alcoholic beers. I tried one once & totally didn't see the point. It just messed with my head in the power of association. I liked the taste but I didn't like how close it brought me to the memory of how it was to have that stuff in my mouth so I like to be as far away from alcohol as possible which means no tiramisu & no ale pies even with the alcohol cooked out. I am serious about my sobriety & I don't want anything to take me to a slip accidentally or indirectly.

I laughed a little about the conditions you're thinking about where & how to work around drinking places at the moment because it reminded me of the Big Book where it describes all the ways we tried to control our drinking. Not that there's necessarily any similarity just that it made me think of it. I'm in this 100% & I take my sobriety seriously only because I learned through experience what happened when I didn't do as suggested & thought I could do it some lackadaisical way. Hitting & Hoping.

That was my experience in the beginning. Since then I've done my best to learn by other people's mistakes so that I don't have to go through any of the worse things that others have been through. I recognise the progressive nature of my disease & feel lucky to have made it out alive so far so good without even any unlawful misdemeanors. I love my sobriety date & I do whatever I can to keep it 1Day@aTime. Well Done in getting to your meetings. I hope your sobriety will bring you many better gifts than you even hoped for. It does for me. Especially if I don't expect or put conditions on it. I get surprises in God's time. Keep coming back, Danielle x

FlyingSquirrel · Senior Member

Thanks, you guys have given me a lot to think about. :)

Jerry F · MIP Old Timer

Aloha Glen...I like that part of your post "rigorous" honesty. I learned early on
and am still learning that my biggest tripping stone is me. When I insist that I
am to be in control and the interpreter of the program I will trip and then I get
to do it "as suggested" again if I survive the trip. As was mentioned the
disease of alcoholism has three choices...sobriety, insanity or death. I've had
my insanity and near death experiences already. My choice is stay with sobriety
and that means let the program lead me and follow my elders.

Honesty for me regarding .5 beers is like trying to convince my wife that I was
only "playing around" and "not really serious" about that other cutie. For me
anything that is a string back to my drinking past is "flirting" and from my
experiences often times a "flirt" would cause me big trouble. When I decided
to get and stay sober I worked at it rigorously getting rid of my tripping stones
one by one. One of my tripping stones was disregarding the suggestion that
males have male sponsors and not female sponsors and that females have
female sponsors. I knew why this was important and chose to do it my way
anyway. Today I make the choice to work "the" program not "my" program.
My program kept me sick.

By the way I haven't had a drink in 30+ years and there have been times you
would have bet I wasn't sober. I was told "it isn't all about not drinking." I
believe that today.

(((((hugs))))) smile

FlyingSquirrel · Senior Member

Well, I also disregarded the male/female advice. My first sponsor was male and it didn't work for me because he canceled twice on me within a short time period and I just wasn't sure of his commitment. His little league seemed to be more important. I didn't actually plan the female sponsor - I was sharing in a meeting my frustration with my current sponsor, and the secretary asked anyone interested in sponsoring to raise their hands. When she did, it hit me that I had real issues confiding in men (thanks to my dad) and that I had a female doctor and a female dentist, so why not a female sponsor. She agreed, so I'm giving it a try and so far it seems ok - there's nothing in the Big Book against it and I don't see any reason why it should be a set-in-stone rule. In general I understand it and agree with it but most rules have exceptions so I see no reason not to at least try it out and see what happens. I have no attraction to her and she is married to the secretary of my home group. I am a bit worried that there could be jealousy issues so I will be watching for that. Otherwise I'm ready to work some steps, dammit!

As far as the original post goes, I texted the person who asked me to judge and told her that I was no longer available to judge contests, and explained why. I plan to find other work and cut down on my hours hosting eventually - I might like to put something together for AA'ers who like to sing karaoke though. That would be awesome. And I have committed to changing my sober date if a similar incident happens again. Tonight I was going to bring some new karaoke slips down there which I had designed for the bar owner, but I thought it over and decided that this was unnecessary - it could wait till tomorrow when I am hosting. The whole situation is very slippery especially because of what happened yesterday, so I need to make sure I am aware of the danger and err on the side of caution. I'll be meeting with my sponsor tomorrow and I'll bring up the subject of the treatment place and whether I need to say anything to them or not.

Simple · Senior Member

This is a very interesting post and some great replies. It's been a while since I've been on this site so thank you for giving me what I need so badly: reality. I sponsored someone who went to Canada and ordered an energy drink in a bar. He didn't know that in Canada many of them contain alcohol. We went back and forth about whether it was a slip, he was obsessed with figuring it out. He then told me he took one more sip right after he realized it had alcohol. I eventually realized two things: he wanted to drink, and he wanted to count it as a slip so he could give up his sobriety date so it wouldn't be so bad to lose his time when he went back out. And yes, he went back out.

I tend not to give advice, but if asked I'm quick to suggest that people change their sobriety dates in these situations. Not because I think they should do it, but to test the response of WHY they are asking the question. Our minds play tricks on us, that's the nature of alcoholism. There's almost too much emphasis on sobriety, and it creates a false pride (I even think I have the right to say this because I"ve been sober 24 years - there's MY false pride). Also, do you think you are going to be sober for the rest of your life? Then really, what is a few days, weeks or months? Funny when you think of it that way.

When you ask about reporting your behavior to the treatment center, it sounds to me like you have fear about it. Why? Is it because they have power over you? Embrace it - that is the result of your alcoholism. Let them have that power. Be honest. They may put you in jail - that is the result of your alcoholism. It is one way to truly work the third step and turn your life over to a Higher Power. The decision won't be yours but you will have been completely honest. Sounds like you are in that horrible place where you are fully realizing the extent of your problem, how it has a hold on your life. See it for what it is. Because you may never be there again if you can be completely honest with yourself. You will truly be in sobriety. (and I say all of this having seen this type of thing over and over and knowing the worst rarely happens, the honest person who really wants to recover usually isn't sent back to jail)

I'm also a hard-ass about sobriety, which means that I don't necessarily think drinking "non-alocholic" beers is sober behavior. And personally I couldn't be in a bar for years once I got sober. The big book has great advice on being in a drinking environment - look it up. Now I feel completely immune to be anywhere I want to go. Funny, most of my non-AA friends now are just normal non-alcoholics who could take it or leave it.

Oh, and as an aside I'm a woman and yes I was sponsoring a man. He way gay. I've also sponsored lesbians. My sponsor also had a male sponsor 30 years ago. I'm not against sponsoring the opposite gender, but be very careful about the WHY again. Sometimes women let men off the hook easier, and vice-versa.

Okay, wow, sorry for my book. I obviously needed this post!

FlyingSquirrel · Senior Member

All very good points, Simple. When you put it that way, it's not such a bad thing to start over with a new sobriety date - my main resistance is that I'd definitely have to notify the treatment center then, because periodically we have a 1-on-1 appointment with counselor and they generally ask again what your sober date is. So then when I gave them a new date, they would question it.

I haven't yet talked to my sponsor about it, will be meeting with her in 5 hours. I would tend to agree with you that I should just be honest with my counselor and not assume that I would know what the results are. Maybe they'd test me on the spot, and the amount that I drank was so small that it wouldn't show up, and they'd decide not to report it as non-compliance. Or maybe they'd report it and I'd be in trouble with the courts but it would be what was necessary for me to maintain long-term sobriety. Fear is the motivator, and fear is what we need to give up.

Dodsworth · Senior Member

"staggering statistic"- LOL

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

FlyingSquirrel wrote:

Maybe they'd test me on the spot, and the amount that I drank was so small that it wouldn't show up, and they'd decide not to report it as non-compliance. Or maybe they'd report it and I'd be in trouble with the courts but it would be what was necessary for me to maintain long-term sobriety. Fear is the motivator, and fear is what we need to give up.

Ok, I must of missed the court thing in your earlier posts. So even with the threat of court action and punishment, you are still, what I would consider, fooling around in bars? I know that you said it's a part time job, but you won't be making any money if you lose your freedom. It all sounds pretty silly from here. Unconventional methods usually lead to unconventional results, believe me, my name used to be Mr. Unconventional, and Mr. Noncomformist, Mr. Unique, Mr. Not as sick as the others....
and Mr. Relapse

. I'm hoping that you luck is better than mine, but it's the statistics that I always go back to. What are you doing that's better than the 19 other people trying to get sober, that have to leave so that you can remain? We're talking less than 5% recovery rate. Do you feel lucky? smile

FlyingSquirrel · Senior Member

Well, like I said I'm only going there on business. I did let them know that I can no longer judge contests. Also, I have learned a lot by watching drunk people while I'm sober, and have actually helped a few drunks (by driving them home, and one of them I gave an AA pamphlet). And I do plan to eventually phase it out altogether, but I do need to keep a roof over my daughter's head in the short term. Thanks for the "unconventional results" quote, that's very good advice and I'm trying to do my best to let go of that instinct to be different.

Also I've decided that I need to tell the treatment place about it and let whatever happens, happen. And I am leaning towards changing my sobriety date over it.

-- Edited by FlyingSquirrel on Friday 12th of June 2009 04:38:47 PM

Jerry F · MIP Old Timer

I am soooo grateful how others loved me and held me up when I first got here
also. I read these post and responses and I remember how resistive I was, and
how defensive when I first encountered "those people", "the ones that said they
knew" who rarely ever let me have control of my sobriety back until they nodded
their heads and knew "he's got it". I remember back then that the group was
sometimes called AA Nazies. Today I don't care what they were called. I learned
not to surrender my life to alcohol again on a daily basis and not to attempt to
think myself into recovery with the same brain I drank with. I hated "them",
I wanted "them" to stop, and then I wanted "them" for help until I learned how
to be like "them". Thank God for "them" and their tough love. These are the
instruments of God's peace as mentioned in the Servants Prayer.

Grateful...Jerry F

Doll · MIP Old Timer

Hmmmm.... I see lots of inconsitency in your responses. And TONS of excuses (just because one male sponsor didn't live up to your expectations doesn't mean they're all this way) .

FS, I think (as in my opinion) you are one who believes you can do it your way and make it. I thought that too and I fell flat on my ass! But, you, like me, are not unique, however I had to find that one out on my own, through much heartache and relapse.

My thought:
If you disregard the suggestion on sponsorship gender, then that tells me you probably have no regard for any of AA's other 'suggestions'. So, I'd say, stop tortureing yourself about whether you qualify for a new sobriety date or not, cause if you continue to disregard the suggestions that are time tested to work, then you'll be needing a new date anyway. IF you make it back, that is.

So, why not try a little honesty? With YOURSELF. It certainly can't hurt.

Prayers.

-- Edited by Doll on Friday 12th of June 2009 09:58:15 PM

FlyingSquirrel · Senior Member

I am trying honesty. And I'd like to see where it's written somewhere that this is AA's official suggestion. I've been told that some people have done it differently and had perfectly good results. Anyway, I have not said that I will never again have a male sponsor - just that I'm currently trying a female sponsor. I actually plan to have this same discussion with her at our first meeting, and try to figure out if this is really what I should be doing. In the meantime I have also talked to another guy with 10 years sobriety (something I believe is another suggested idea for what to look for in a sponsor) and I may end up going through the book with him instead.

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

FS, my mother (33 years sober and 78 years old) has had plenty of male sponsees and all have stayed sober that I know of. The main thing is to not pick and choose when it comes to the suggestions. I tried that for a couple years and I'm lucky that I kept the desire to keep coming back. I don't know if I'd have been as willing if not for living in such a large metro area where I could continue to go to new meetings and not feel ashamed of relapses. It must tough to live in a small town with few meetings, containing the same people, not that they would beat you down about it

I'm very happy to hear that you are going to meetings daily and using a sponsor. I hope you don't feel like we're nitpicking you.

Dean

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

The same gender sponsor is a tricky one in my fellowship, being that most of the people are gay. For the same reason I think they say they want you heteros to have a same gendered sponsor, they might advise us to go with the opposite. One thing I have heard, which sounds funny is that newcomers sometimes purposely pick sponsors who they have zero attraction towards (of course sometimes it gets messed up because the sponsor might be attracted to them) or they pick someone in a relationship so they more inherently know that person is off limits. Anyhow, having a sponsor of the opposite gender is so common in this fellowship. I would say about a 10th to a quarter of the people do it that way. Personally, I feel I do need a male sponsor...at the moment not only that but a gay male sponsor because I am on a quest to learn to be a confident, responsible, adult, gay, male. Hence, I choose a sponsor who has what I want....not WHAT I WANT literally lol. Also, while I'm accepting of the transgendered folks in the fellowship, I'm curious WTF the suggestion would be for them? One of both? Another transgendered sponsor? There's only 2 or 3 that I know of that I see around so that would be slim pickins.

Jerry F · MIP Old Timer

To be honest...(better late than never?) I have sponsored several females
in the past with this (my own...taught by other elders) caveat. I will only
go to step 3 with you. You must do step 4 and beyond with a female
sponsor. If I start to react too directly or too forcefully in either of our minds,
I will resign. If I feel that you are putting something or someone in the way
of working these three steps as taught by the fellowship I will resign.

That has always worked for me. I go with what I was taught and what has
worked for others and myself. I don't drift into uncharted waters alone or
with the "I can" attitude anymore. I drank that way and it almost killed me.
What works for me (a part anyway) in my recovery is humility. Like most
alcoholics psycologically, I am a risk taker but not ever so often or blatantly
like I use to. Best do what works and keep that simple.

(((((hugs))))) smile

-- Edited by Jerry F on Saturday 13th of June 2009 10:28:26 PM

FlyingSquirrel · Senior Member

I do feel somewhat nitpicked.. but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I decided that it would be better to try another male sponsor. However, I also decided that I do not need to be in any hurry at all to quit my job as a karaoke host - this was based on page 101 in the book.

"Our rule is not to avoid a place where there is drinking, if we have a legitimate reason for being there. That includes bars, nightclubs, dances, receptions, weddings, even plain ordinary whoopee parties. To a person who has had experience with an alcoholic, this may seem like tempting Providence, but it isn't. You will note that we made an important qualification. Therefore, ask yourself on each occasion, 'Have I any good social, business, or personal reason for going to this place? Or am I expecting to steal a little vicarious pleasure from the atmosphere of such places?' If you answer these questions satisfactorily, you need have no apprehension. Go or stay away, whichever seems best. But be sure you are on solid spiritual ground before you start and that your motive in going is thoroughly good. Do not think of what you will get out of the occasion. Think of what you can bring to it."

My original motive in going to judge the contest was a good one - they were desperate for a judge. But once it became clear that the contest was off, that's where I was on shaky ground. I was in fact trying to steal a little vicarious pleasure from the atmosphere, and got taught a lesson. I learned the lesson, and told them I could no longer judge. Hosting is a completely different situation - it IS a legitimate reason for being there because I need to earn money. I've had very little temptation to drink, and I've hosted more than 50 times since quitting 4 months ago. Also I bring a lot to this business, and want to help the owner succeed. People enjoy the extra things I do like buying new music that they request, keeping their old song request slips so they don't have to look them up every time, and bringing my own cordless microphone.

And as I noted before, I've had the opportunity to occasionally help out a drunk or at least expose them to the idea of AA. Last night on my way home a guy was driving with no front tire.. I called him in and helped the state patrol arrest him - he refused to stop when they tried to pull him over, so I got in front of him on the off-ramp and gradually slowed till he had to stop. I'll probably be seeing him in a meeting soon, not that I'll know who he is. He certainly isn't the first drunk driver I've reported lately - I have the opportunity to see a lot of them since I get off my shift at the same time they leave the bars. I view it as doing my fellow alcoholic a favor - a DUI is pretty much what it takes for many people to get to AA, and besides he could get killed or kill someone else.

So I have plenty of good reason for doing what I'm doing, not to mention that if I were to have to quit altogether, I'd probably feel resentful that one of my biggest non-alcoholic pleasures in life is gone (it's not the same singing without an audience) and that in itself could be a motivator to start drinking again. I guess I still feel a bit defensive - that probably comes from the fact that the people at your average AA meeting are usually a lot more gentle in the way they try to nudge you in the right direction than people online seem to be. Guess that's just the nature of the beast.

-- Edited by FlyingSquirrel on Sunday 14th of June 2009 05:22:54 AM

-- Edited by FlyingSquirrel on Sunday 14th of June 2009 05:23:48 AM

toni baloney · Senior Member

Hi There Glenn,

Read your new note, and was thinking that a lot of people dont go back and re read, how about a new Post??

Just a thought.

Hugs to you my friend.

Toni

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

Flying Squirrel,

If we didn't care about your sobriety, we would just agree with everything that you say or say nothing at all.
We just want you to have the best possible chance of succeeding in this uphill battle. We may sound fanatical, but we are people that have experienced failures that cost us dearly and wish the same on no one, not even an enemy. I am impressed by the amount of thought that you've put into this, and pray that you will continue to give more of it to your program, as time goes forward. We didn't get sober over night and neither will you. The damnedest thing is that we don't know what we don't know, in terms of our thinking and emotional maturity. Our ego protects us from a lot of that. That's why it pays to listen to those with experience.

Dean