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Post Info TOPIC: Uncertainty (WARNING: long-winded post)


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Uncertainty (WARNING: long-winded post)
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Things have been tumultuous lately, in my head that is. To reassure myself I reread 'The Doctor's Opinion' and 'More About Alcoholism' in the BB. The description of the alcoholic still fits me. However, the nature of alcoholism as defined in those two chapters has underscored my growing fears. Here are some phrases that have me uncertain if I am indeed done drinking.

"After they have succumbed to the desire again, as so many do, and the phenomenon of craving develops, they pass through the well-known stages of a spree, emerging remorseful, with a firm resolution not to drink again. This is repeated over and over, and unless this person can experience an entire psychic change there is very little hope of his recovery"

"...but among physicians, the general opinion seems to be that most chronic alcoholics are doomed"

"In the early days of our drinking we occasionally remained sober for a year or more, becoming serious drinkers again later"

"He had felt only the first nip of the wringer [a reference to Fred's story]. Most alcoholics have to be pretty badly mangled before they really commence to solve their problems"

"The alcoholic at certain times has no effective mental defense against the first drink"

I am more convinced than last time I got sober, more convinced that alcohol ultimately destroys me but I'm STILL angry that I cannot drink. I don't have as much gratitude as someone who REALLY has been through "the wringer". I've done the first seven steps and been making meetings and talking with my sponsor on a daily or almost daily basis for the last four months. This post isn't about how I don't think the program works, it does work but I've not had a psychic change that the book talks about. At least I don't think so. I feel like I'm putting off the inevitable and the longer I stay sober the more devastating it will be to my psyche if/when I do drink again. It's as if I wish I didn't know so much about recovery because it is just drawing everything out, slowing down my path to the bottom. You can say- "Well, good lord don't you know this is all just rationalizing?" Sure is, and that is the problem. If I can still rationalize it then I've not had a psychic change!

 The BB was written by and for alcoholics who had very low bottoms. People can say- "You choose your own bottom". Well, I suppose that is always going to be true, only the alcoholic can choose when to stop drinking, but the spiritual basis for this fellowship was tailored for people who were literally dying, which is why they had very high success rates back then. Today, the program has a pretty low success rate, not by the virtues of the program but because so many people are exposed to AA who either aren't alcoholic, or they are simply not desperate enough. I'm not taking anyone's inventory on here mind you, just stating the concern I have for myself, that I'm not in that 5-10% that gets and stays sober, at least yet.
 
Come Sept. 1 there will be some changes in my life that, if I would relapse, would put me on the street, and maybe that is what it will take. But, (and here is a whopper of a rationalization) part of me is thinking I might as well drink now and maybe before Sep1 I will be desperate enough to be truly grateful for my sobriety. I dunno. This post is a bunch of crap I'm sure and thats ok. I've been afraid to tell my sponsor about how I'm feeling and have been reluctant to do the same on here for whatever reason.

If alcoholics are doomed to drink again without a true spiritual/psychic change, then when is the other shoe going to drop? This is making me crazy... 



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Hey Dods!

Thanks for posting this! I too have some of the same fears as my bottom was very high, but I do know that if I were to continue on course, I would lose everything.

My sincere suggestion is that you do exactly what you are afraid to do. Be very honest with your sponsor and lay these cards on the table.

Remember what the How it works says about people that fail. "Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves." Complete honesty can simply mean not hiding anything. Your sponsor is a trusted companion on this journey and his investment in you deserves nothing less than complete honesty. And tell him that you are afraid to share this with him. That will open the door and he will help you!

This is all coming from someone who is new to the program, but I do know the value of not hiding those things we are afraid to expose.

You do not have to fail. Completely give yourself to this simple program.

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Hey Dods,
Are you happier drunk or sober? You have tasted sobriety and you have seen the results of drunkenness. Are you telling me you want to drink now so you can bring yourself to a new low so you can THEN "hit bottom?". In other words, after you kill an innocent person in an accident, make everyone in your chosen profession convinced you are insane, chase away friends and family, lose a limb, etc, etc,.
I guess I am saying that if you use that line of reasoning you are letting the monster into your head, and that line of reasoning may be what causes some NEVER to recover. Do not persue that chain of thought because you empower your monster. You know this program is not for sissies. It is a noble effort. I am really glad you brought this up and were honest in bringing it forward. That is an example of the bravery and honesty of this program. Please bring this up to your sponsor so that you can discuss it in detail. Its Sunday morning and the birds are chirping and that can be there for you every morning. Good Luck Dodds! We love you man.

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Hey Dodds, good job at verbalizing your feelings and communicating them. It always amazes me how well our brains work in early sobriety, with regards to analytical thinking, even if in the wrong direction like comparing out instead of in. Or looking at the glass half empty.  You need to stop thinking so much, your brain is not your friend and your best thinking got you here.  My guess is that if you have so much time to think, you're not staying busy enough with life.  You really need to fill your weekly calander with extracuricular activities.   Summer is here and there are a million things to do every week.  I guaranty if you get out and exercise daily, ridding a bike, jogging, swimming, hiking... for 45 to 90 minutes, "your whole outlook on  life will change".  Continue to improve your eating (nutrition and vitamins), sleeping, exercising and you will feel and think better through action.  We cannot think our way to better feeling, we have to take action. 

Personal experience-  looking back at the first 3 years of sobriety,  I didn't have an abundance of sane thinking during the whole period, but, like the teenager that I was emotionally, I thought my brain was sharp and that I had all figured out.  Looking back, I was lucky that me and my sobriety survived.  It was through daily meetings and discussing my crazy thoughts with my AA friends and sponsors, that I didn't cave to my superior intelligence and analytical abilities (and my disease trying to kill me).  no

Just keep walking the path and try harder to enjoy the journey, which is the Daily Gratitude for a sober existence and a repreave from the horrible affects of active alcoholism.  Pick up a regular begginers meeting so that you can work on this stuff.  Many of us (Toni Balony for one) continued to go to a beginners meeting for years.  I did for 3 years.   Dodds you claim to be a high bottom drunk, but I think it's just a case of  a poor short term memory or  a well developed "forgetter" in program speak. Your fears of what will happen if you drink are real, and mixed with a familiar  fear of failure (impending doom) which dissapates over time, the longer that we stay sober.   Your expectations of being able to stay sober 4 months from now don't have anything to do with staying sober Today. You also have expectations about your spiritual progress, probably from comparing to others. I think that you should read the "promises" every day for a month. Which you can do automatically by attending daily meetings biggrin.   "They are being fulfilled among us - sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly.  They will always materialize if we work for them."

You're at a crucial point in your sobriety, were you need to keep your eyes on the prize.   What that passage in the book is trying to tell you is that you're not out of the woods yet bambi, and statistically you won't be untill you hit 5 years.  Until then, keep putting daily, monthy, and yearly goals in front of yourself and work for them.  It gets better the longer you stay sober, you just need to buy time.  If you look back at your sobriety, you'll remember days weeks where you felt really good.   What of those feelings?  Are they incorrect?  Why not hang on to them instead of working to snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory?  We all have these thoughts and feelings.  Getting sober is learning how to disconnect our feelings from our actions.  We no longer have to do what pops into our head.  My guess that you feel better after talking about this.  smile


By the way, these are also called the "9th step promises" because they come right after the 9th step in the Big Book.  Maybe it's time for you to get steps 8 and 9 going, so that you can reap more of these for yourself.  biggrin

If we are painstaking about this phase of our development, we will be amazed before we are half way through.

We are going to know a new freedom and a new happiness.

We will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it.

We will comprehend the word serenity and we will know peace.

No matter how far down the scale we have gone, we will see how our experience can benefit others.

That feeling of uselessness and self-pity will disappear.

We will lose interest in selfish things and gain interest in our fellows.

Self-seeking will slip away.

Our whole attitude and outlook upon life will change.

Fear of people and of economic insecurity will leave us.

We will intuitively know how to handle situations which used to baffle us.

We will suddenly realize that God is doing for us what we could not do for ourselves.



Are these extravagant promises? We think not.

They are being fulfilled among us - sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly.

They will always materialize if we work for them.

Alcoholics Anonymous p83-84

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Sunday 7th of June 2009 07:32:07 AM

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You are complicating a matter that is not complicated. It's simple! Not easy, but simple!

Forget about the Dr's Opinion, More About Alcoholism and the 9th Step Promises (no offense, Dean).

Read "How It Works" - Pay close attention when you get to

"BEING CONVINCED"

Because, you see, if you're not convinced (and apparently from your post you're not completely)  none of the rest of it matters. You will not stay sober if  you are not convinced.

Go back to step one. 



Hugs and prayers.....Jen







-- Edited by Doll on Sunday 7th of June 2009 07:55:21 PM

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This is the second post of yours that I have read saying that you're done with the first 7 steps.

I can't say it any plainer than this:


Get going on your amends!


Thank you.



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We all have uncertainty about the future. The natural tendency of humans is to try and predict the future based on our past experiences. Your past experience has been one of relapse...so I think this is why you might be inclined to predict this in the future. I have been undergoing a psychic shift that started with the moment I realized alcohol was not my friend, it was destroying me as a person, and I needed to get sober. You have already realized these things too...so part of that shift is complete. I know you have worked step 3 and understand the concept of letting go. It is time to let go of self-doubt, self-sabotage, self-hate...pretty much self-everything and just let recovery take over. TRUST that even at the worst times, when it feels like your efforts at sobriety are for nothing, it WILL get better. Let go of identifying yourself as "A relapser" or "using the revolving door of AA" as you have said. You are no different than any of us. You have a problem with alcohol and are in recovery. We all have different faiths and upbringings. I did not grow up in a christian family. I am gay. For these reasons it is a little hard for me to trust organized religion and just walk into a church where 90 percent of the people think I'm going to hell. This doesn't mean I'm not making spiritual progress though. Spiritual progress is my spirit healing, and just like any other wound, it's gonna hurt bad at times before the wound closes up some. Like Dean said (regarding early convoluted sobriety thinking), I convince myself I've made no progress a lot. My brain likes to think I know everything when I know nothing. I have 2 master's degrees and my best thinking got me to be a daily drinking alcoholic. My brain works okay when it comes to helping others, but it is still MY enemy a lot of the time. I yearn for serenity and to just not try and think my way around situations. It is people like Dean and others with long term sobriety that convince me to stay this course. Thank you for your honesty and don't feel alone because my thoughts take me in the same direction a lot of the time...Do you think that book was written for Gay people? Does it have a chapter called "To the homosexual"? I could convince myself that the book is not for me and not about me...but it is, simply because I am an alcoholic. If it doesn't make sense now...you can always revert back to "more will be revealed." It's okay not to know some things....as long as you accept alcohol will not, cannot, and and will never be the solution to any of your problems.

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pinkchip wrote:

Does it have a chapter called "To the homosexual"? I could convince myself that the book is not for me and not about me...but it is, simply because I am an alcoholic. If it doesn't make sense now...you can always revert back to "more will be revealed." It's okay not to know some things....as long as you accept alcohol will not, cannot, and and will never be the solution to any of your problems.



Thanks, this made me laugh.  I remember talking to my first and greatest sponsor John about my x-wife's (wife at that time) drinking and he said "they don't make a pink version of the Big Book and that she'll just have to use the blue one like everyone else."  He was gay btw and a retired psychologist that worked at the Pentagon for 20 years.  smile

 



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I'm surprised I haven't drank yet...It shocks me that I've been kept from the drink all this time even through these insane thoughts- thanks everyone for helping me to stay sober. My sponsor has a rule that I need to call him every day before noon and these last couple of days I haven't been because for some insane reason I felt like I would be bothering him- dont understand where/how those arise, but it doesnt matter i guess. Anyways we just spoke on the phone and he asked me if I wanted to still do this (program)...I sort of freaked out and thought I might be losing my sponsor, so I practically begged him to believe that I was still on board. I am still on board. I'm glad I posted what I did, it is helpful to see it and have people react to it rather than have it play to an audience of one (my crazy ass). The last few days have been weird- during the morning and afternoon I will have little to no doubt about staying sober, and then about an 10pm I'll start thinking to myself- "Hhmm, the liquor store closes in an hour, I have to decide right now what I'm going to do". It's pretty silly. Since I've been back from my trip I've done little in the way of ACTION. My sponsor wants to start reading again tonight and starting on step 8. I have to trust in the process, right?

Thank you for reading my post and giving me hope.

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I loved your post, Adam & can identify so much with all those sorts of thoughts that simply want to get me drunk again. I had a 'highbottom' & on the last day of my drinking said 'It could have been worse' & then laughed at the ridiculous notion that it would have to be. I'm glad it wasn't from the stories I've heard around me. I am extreeeeemmley, undeservedly fortunate. There is no good reason why I should get this sooner than those who haven't & died. I am not special just very, very fortunate & I know this because I will always have the capacity to die an alcoholic death if I pick it up again. 

I know this because one, when I pick up the first drink I can't stop & when I put it down I cannot keep it down by my own unaided will. My obsession would always accompany me. It's funny that you should mention the psychic change. I've been practicing a full 12step program to the best of my ability & have still had drinking thoughts these last few days That tells me there is more work to do & I think it has to do with my amends. There's a few I can be getting on with so I better make another drive forward & do some more. 

My boyfriend Carl has probably THE most thorough program of anyone I know to date. His is motivated by shere desperation & a low rockbottom but I don't use this as an excuse not to work mine to the best of my ability (I do actually at times, what am I lying for lol) but even he said that he didn't have his psychic change until after a few weeks of a fully disciplined working of Steps 10/11/12 on a daily basis. It didn't come automatically. He has to work for it. 

We all have to work for it too as we have to get & then stay in good spiritual condition. Don't project about the future, Adam. You don't know what your HP has in store for you but, like me, the longer you stay away from that first drink 1Day@aTime, the best chance you have of finding out. Try not to put conditions on your recovery & the other thing is that You are Not in Charge!!! The only thing you get to do is your best, stay away from the first drink & leave the results to the God of your understanding. 

Keep on showing up & coming back. I'm glad I remember that 5yrs is a good ball park number to give ourselves a chance to work into these changes over time. I'll be 3 years in October so I'm still a baby too. I have to remember not to get cocky or complacent. Step 1 in the 12&12 speaks about 'highbottom' drunks & I know that my bottom was low enough or I simply wouldn't have stopped. I know I have a 'forgetter' too & I don't speak about my drinking in meetings very often being obsessed with recovery. 

I have shared it with my sponsor but maybe I might sit down & have the humility to tell my definitive drunkalogue one day. I have got so many horrible stories that I suppose I just haven't taken the time to remember & realise how significant they were to my alcoholism. I'm having some flashbacks right now. Eeuurgh! I thought it was because I was just being an idiot & nothing to do with drinking. But, not everyone who drinks behaves like that. I suppose it was that I was just too much in the middle of it & misbehaving with other idiots to see that. The irony of it was that none of my boyfriends acted like me so there was a clue straight off. Danielle 'the nightmare girlfriend'.

None of it is like that for me Today & it is all thanks to be sober & getting to grips with this program. I don't have to deal with any shameful behaviours today. I just get to decide whether I'm going to be happy or not, useful or not, productive or not. Luxury problems & I don't have to live with shame. That is worth staying sober for all for itself! & I am ambitious. I do want so much more. Onwards & Upwards, Adam. Keep on moving, Danielle (now 'the dreamgirl girlfriend' as Carl calls me) lol


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Hi There Dods,

We have not meet really, but have to say after reading and re-reading your Post, I have only a tiny response to this. It was as if the Drinking Alcoholic was in charge of your thinking, it really got me. Almost like you were letting the Disease speak for you.
Cunning, Baffling, and Powerful.

Perhaps, and more than likely than not, I have never ever felt what you are feeling for one reason, I believe I was one of those Low Bottom Drunks.

I have heard it said, and I will repeat it to you, if you are having a difficult time with the Step you are on, then Go Back and do a more thorough previous Step.
Just like the saying, after doing the 4th Step......, DO THE Fifth Step or DRINK One.
Maybe there is some simalariity to where you are at right now.

From reading your Post, feel you are in troubled waters, right now, and AGREE 1000% TALK to your Sponsor, why have a Sponsor if you cannot confide what is going on with you????

Getting into thinking is a problem I live with, and try very hard to stay away from any analytical stuff. It does not serve me well, there is a saying also, that maybe you can really relate to at this time. "My mind is like a real bad neighborhood, you should never go there ALONE"

Some of have shared here in the last few days, Rule No 1, Don't Drink, Rule No 2, Don't Think.

I Pray that you can begin to see your life through Grateful eyes. No matter what has happened to me on my journey, I will force myself, when feeling disturbed by anything, a simple Gratitude List, only need to write down 5 things, and the first is ALWAYS, Thank You God, for my Life.

Please stay in touch here, ok, I think I speak for some others too, your Post concerned me.....for YOU.

Oops, said this was going to be a very short response, well for those that know me, that is hard to do, haha.

A Giant Hug to You Dods,
One of your new friends here, Toni

PS, Came back with a thought, or Feeling, that the Pychic Change you are speaking of comes from a Spiritual Connection, that goes straight to the HEART, not the head.


-- Edited by toni baloney on Sunday 7th of June 2009 02:28:23 PM

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Hi Dods, again,

Well this not only is not a short note, but a double post, I think I need to correct what I previously wrote, and that is I did indeed think exactly what you are are thinking, but that was the beginning of my 10 year Relapse period.

And from my own thinking and obstanace, I had a lot, a loving husband, a beautiful home, 2 cars, and a fabulous life, and my thing was then, well with my horrific childhood, I deserved all of it.

And I could not begin to tell you, it would take several hours to describe to you what that slid into Hell was like, it is the Prgression of this Disease that I experienced, and when I see new young people here, it makes my heart smile all the time. for they might excape that slide into hell. And ultimately being in the Grip of the Disease, where you can only drink, your choices are gone. The Disease is in full control, and I was looking at the end of my life, when I finally surrended to this Program, with a Question to God, Please will you show me a different way..........that led to a committment to AA, like never before, and ONLY through the GRACE of GOD, am I sitting here writing to you today, with almost 19 years of continuous sobriety.

Ok, thats enough out of me today, but had to come back and tell you that that thinking only led to a very incomprehensive and demoralizing state.

And yes, Dean was right, I did attend Newcombers Meetings for about 5 of those years, because I was a Newcomber every time.

Hugs,
Toni



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Voice of experience with doing some more research.  If you didn't hit the very low bottom... it's waiting for ya.  That is a promise that I know will come true.  When I first sobered up, it was after a suicide attempt.  It kept me sober for over five years.

But the last two years, my thoughts were similar to yours.  I was jealous of people that could drink and I started questioning whether it was "really that bad?"

So I tried controlled drinking for awhile and then everything hit the fan.  I couldn't stop.  I was a poster child for the people you describe in the Big Book.  6'4" and I weighed 145 pounds.  I lived every minute of everyday for alcohol.

My new bottom was ten times worse then my previous.  Worse then suicide? Yup.  Today, I'm grateful that I got another chance.  And I also know how painful this journey was when I started so I pray I never need to do it again.  Because I know deep down I have one more good barn-burner drunk in me - but I'm not sure if I have another recovery in me.

I agree with Dean on The Promises after the ninth step.  Sweet words that will come true...

Dave



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I know for a fact that I cannot drink and there are a lot of medications I cannot take because it will only lead to addiction. It's frustrating at times but I don't want to relapse.

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After re-reading your post  I have to say it again:


Go back to step one. 

Sorry, but  IMHO with not quite 4 months of sobriety there's no way you should be on step 7.  Of course there is no time limit, etc but  I'd think this should be confirmed in your own mind since you continue to struggle.



hmm



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Hi Again Dods,

I took this response out, cause I did not understand the full situation,

Hope you are feeling a littler better today,

Toodles, Toni

-- Edited by toni baloney on Monday 8th of June 2009 10:38:47 AM

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It's not Dods first time (or second) in the program. There is no rule saying how long it should take to do the steps and if you stick around long enough, you'll be doing them over again, especially steps 4-9. And it's far better to do them a bit quickly then to not do them at all and relapse. If his sponsor says it's time, then it should be between the two of them.

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