Spirituality hijacked by religious nut cases...

Tipsy McStagger · Senior Member

Spirituality hijacked by religious nut cases...

Tipsy McStagger · Senior Member

Okay, I got it out of my system.

I'm going to an "AA Round Up" tonight...I've never been to one before so I'm not sure what that entails. I'm hoping there's people dressed as clowns getting chased by angry bulls.

I hate clowns.

Doll · MIP Old Timer

Tipsy McStagger wrote: " How the hell can anyone with a 3 digit IQ ignore this and allow themselves to bow down to a "power greater than themselves"? "

My first thought when I read this was no humility and the ISM (I Self Me) is still in control.

I'd say so far your IQ hasn't been able to keep you sober. So, what have you got to lose to atleast "consider" that there is a Higher Power and you are not it?

Glad you got it outta your system! Did you vent to your sponsor.........

((((Hugs))) (and the rest of that warm, fuzzy shit! )

cooncatbob · Senior Member

I agree with you on this one Tipsy.
How many people have these religious bigots murdered over the ages because they didn't like the way somebody else worshiped their higher power.

Marc T. · Veteran Member

We looked upon this world of warring individuals, warring theological systems, and inexplicable calamity, with deep skepticism, We looked askance at many individuals who claimed to be godly. How could a Supreme Being have anything to do with it all? And who could comprehend a Supreme Being anyhow? Yet, in other moments, we found ourselves thinking, when enchanted by a starlit night, "Who, then, make all this?" There was a feeling of awe and wonder, but it was fleeting and soon lost.

Yes, we of agnostic temperament have had these thoughts and experiences. Let us make haste to reassure you. We found that as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice and express even a willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced to get results, even though it was impossible for any of us to fully define or comprehend that Power, which is God.

Much to our relief, we discovered we did not need to consider another´s conception of God. Our own conception, however inadequate, was sufficient to make the approach and to effect a contact with Him. As soon as we admitted the possible existence of a Creative Intelligence, a Spirit of the Universe underlying the totality of things, we began to be possessed of a new sense of power and direction, provided we took other simple steps. We found that God does not make too hard terms with those who seek Him. To us, the Realm of Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive; never exclusive or forbidding to those who earnestly seek. It is open, we believe, to all men.

tlcate · Senior Member

For those of us, myself not included, that do have faith in God and it gives us peace - then let them have it. I don't believe in God - but I am not going to say there isn't one. And I am not going to take up my arguments about religion with a group of folks whose primary focus is staying sober and helping ME stay sober. And the more I sit there pissed off about how much they talk about God - the more it is about God for ME. So I chose to just get over it.

For me - I don't think of turning anything over to anyone or anything. I look at it as letting go - I visualize it - when you turn something over - you can physically drop it and the minute you have let it go from your grasp - you have let it go. It doesn't have to "go" anywhere or to anyone.

When I first heard the 3rd step, I thought - jeez these people don't want to work at life - they want to give up control to something else. I thought it was crazy. Now I don't believe that is what they are doing - and I have translated it to fit my needs. I am doing the work. The work in AA, the work to stay sober, the work to keep my life manageable in all aspects. But I LET GO of the results. I am learning to do the work without the fear of the results and not get upset about the results if they are not what I want them to me. I am not being "willful" in my actions - but doing the next right thing - and then letting life happen. I am not turning it over to God. But I am finding peace.

And I am not judging others for choosing to.

I am sure you are a smart enough man to weed through the talk about religion and God to find the gems you need to keep you sober. And as for the power greater than yourself - well if you believe that you are the highest power on the planet - perhaps we should all be worshiping you. Come on, bud. You are human just like the rest of us. And you are an alcoholic..........just like the rest of us.

I hope you find what works for you, find some peace, and let go of some of the anger.

tlc

-- Edited by tlcate at 00:43, 2008-10-05

Dave Harm · Senior Member

I have no use for organized religion and if AA was a religion - I wouldn't be a member. I do believe in a Higher Power, whom I do not choose to call God, but it is a Supreme Being. If I called it God, then for me, it would resemble a religious figure.

Through the years, I've called Her different names. Serenity and Honesty stuck around a long time, until I found Her perfect name - Love. Love for myself, Love for others, and Love for the group as a whole.

Religion is for people scared of going to hell. Spirituality is for people who've been in hell. Or another way, religion is man's search for God, while spirituality is God's search for man. We were taught religion, but we were born of the spirit.

Through my journey of finding a Higher Power, of my understanding, I did find a perfect church for Her. The only catch is, I'm the only member and I'm not looking to expand this church.

My point is don't close the door on Him (or Her.) As a child I had many invisible friends, why can't I have one as an adult?

Creating Dreams, from the nightmares of hell...

TLH · MIP Old Timer

cooncatbob wrote:

I agree with you on this one Tipsy.

Me three on this one, Tipsy and Cooncatbob. There are plenty atheists in AA some who get along quite successfully- they just are largely a silent group when it comes to the topic of religion and spirituality, which really shouldn't come up that much in any specific form at meetings anyhow (though it often does.)

I have stopped attending more than one meeting because nobody wants to call the holy rollers on their stuff. If Jesus is having trouble with alcohol and wants to get help he will come in on his own accord. Way back in the beginning even Doctor Bob was purported to have told Bill W that maybe he should lay off the religion at first as it might drive away people who really want help.

And yes- clowns are scary. Mimes too! weirdface

Doll · MIP Old Timer

"Be quick to see where religious people are right. Make use of what they offer."

AA BB, pp 87 (4th Edition)

Sick of being sick · MIP Old Timer

I have sat in meetings, and on this forum, and listened(read) when others have expressed what 'God' has done for them. And I think..."If this has changed their lives for the better, I am happy for them." I have always believed that each of us needs to take what works for them and use it. As long as I am hitting on slogans....'Live and let live.'...'Easy does it.'.... smile

The only time I am offended by someone else's beliefs(Christian, Islamic, Judaic, Buddhist, Atheistic, etc) is when they feel that they must force others to 'convert' to their way of thought. I don't have a problem with them trying that on me, as they are just wasting their time, because I am confident and comfortable with my own beliefs.

I do suspect that anyone who is compulsed to have to change everyone else's belief to match theirs is probably not too secure in their own. I don't feel they are wasting my time in a meeting if they just use their alloted time to say, "I have found God!", unless they have to continue with a sermon, "And I am here to preach to you all, so you can find MY God, too!"

As you say, it can drive away people who need the "fellowship of AA", which to me is the ONE Higher Power that we all can rely on.

PS. Here is another AA saying I came across recently that would be good for all of us to remember when we alkies are discussing such a sensitive topic as religion: "Wear life like a loose garment, NOT a hair shirt!"

-- Edited by Sick of being sick at 08:19, 2008-10-05

-- Edited by Sick of being sick at 08:23, 2008-10-05

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

Agreed, there is no place in AA (or any other 12 step program) for religion. Members should be stopped in mid sentence when making any religious references. I've said it before, that I wouldn't mind if the word "God" was replaced, in the literature, with HP. I also think that spirituality could be explained differently, to include bonding with nature, which many of us do. It would also help if the concept of spirituality could be forever separated from religion, which in reality it is. Religion is a man made vehicle to help folks think and feel spiritually, and in most cases it fails. Mostly it's a deal that you read certain things, say certain things, and believe certain things, and pay certain monies, in exchange for a ticket to a place in after life.

Spirituality has nothing to do with that. It is concerned with now, the right now.

It would be better for all concerned if we focused on purpose of connecting with a HP, instead of "joining the debate team". Those reasons being freedom from the bondage of self and self centered fear, which is "the chief activator of all of our defects of character" <---that's huge, in fact addressing these represents the bulk of the program.
Even if the "non believer" would approach this (relationship to a HP) as the practical use of a psychological model, such as inner child work in Acoa, they could see the benefit before the application. Is there a child living in my head? Probably not, but the exercises that I performed, as if there was, has helped me tremendously. The good news is/was, that I didn't have to "believe" that there was a child living in my head, in order to do the exercises and reap the benefits. I simply copied what millions of others in the program had done before me and got similar results. A pretty good deal actually wink

The reason that these "psychological models" work, is that our subconscious minds do not know the difference between a real experience and an imagined one, when it comes to emotions and learned behaviors. For example, in all the wars our country has fought in, from the revolutionary war till the Korean war, a large percentage of soldiers could not fire their weapons at the enemy. The percentage was somewhere close to half. Many of the civil war soldiers were found dead on the battle field, their rifle had been loaded 2 and 3 times but never fired.

Knowing that they had a serious problem, our armies substituted the bulls eye targets at the firing range with human silhouettes and bingo, 90 something percent of the soldiers in vietnam were firing their weapons at the enemy. Imagine the percentage of today's soldiers, of the video gamer generation, that fire their weapons after years of playing "first person shooter games"? Imo, that's one of the biggest reasons that school shootings are so common. Same reason that the Blue Angels, sit in chairs, in formation, with their eyes closed and, as a group, mentally go through their aerobatic performance before each show for practice.

Many of us have altered our memories, by reliving our resentments, over and over again, in our heads and imagining that the other person did or said more than they did (embellishing) and that we did less. After a few times, we start to believe the new story. When these people retell the story to someone else who witnessed the event, they seem patently dishonest, but in reality, the teller doesn't have a clue. I'm digressing here but hopefully I got my point across.

That is why, in the program, you'll hear "fake it till you make it" or "act as if", with regards to the steps that include HP. I believe that is says in the 3rd step "we just need for the door to be open a crack" to let the process begin.

Dean

-- Edited by StPeteDean at 08:28, 2008-10-05

Sick of being sick · MIP Old Timer

Hey Dean! Always love your insight.

The thing about the Blue Angels??..It works in golf too...I always try a technique that I read in some golf mag. You are supposed to close your eyes on each Teebox and imagine playing your best shot all the way through to the green.

The psychological models...??..Ego=Adult(rational/reasoning/unpredjudiced) ; SuperEgo=Parent(admonishing/nurturing/punishing); Id=Child(demanding/needy/subject to the Adult chastising). I agree that there really isn't a child (or parent or adult) living in my head, only the psychological/social training that I received from childhood forward. I do believe that we need to retrain our thinking to stop bypassing the 'Adult' and only operating on 'Parent'/'Child' interaction in our thought processes.

And another bad habit besides 'embellishing', is when we start thinking or saying, "He/she thinks this/that about me." We are not really capable of mind reading. We are 'projecting' our thoughts into that person to justify our own feelings.

Also, to Tipsey: Man, you sure can stir the stew! Don't stop making us think!

Phil · MIP Old Timer

Always liked the old saying...

"Take what you need, and leave the rest" :)

Doll · MIP Old Timer

For a long time I found it amusing that we can share in a F2F about laying up in a crackhouse, embezzling from our employer, sleeping with our best friend's spouse, or shitting our pants, etc and no is is offended ( I suppose I could be, as I personally have never done any of these things). But bring up God and people recoil like it's a hot flame. I think it's "mocking what we don't understand" which is fear based. Then I came to realize, through the tenance of my own faith & religious beliefs, the reason is I don't get to choose God, HE chooses ME. The Big Big Book talks of the "chosen".

There MUST be something out there somewhere greater than me, right? if there weren't how did I acquire 'the desire to stop drinking" ? I certainly didn't come up with that one on my own. Even when I went to AA I had no intention of quitting!

It's not my job to try to 'convert' anyone, that's God's job and I choose to leave it up to Him. I, too, can be offended when someone tries to 'convert' me from what I believe to what they believe is "right" but then I remind myself that it's principals before personalities and that tolerance really has to be my code or I wouldn't make it AA, either. Like Phil said Take what you need....

Just my 2c worth........

TLH · MIP Old Timer

Every time I experience a three-wave hold down or get tossed around like a rag doll all the way to the beach I realize again that there are powers greater than me. I only have to look around at the sky, the ocean, mountains and I realize it. Anyone who claims there are no powers greater than themselves should go down to the ocean and try to stop it. I have no argument with anyone's god or with the idea that there are powers greater than me.

I also don't mind taking what I can from things and leaving the rest.

I do mind going to an AA meeting to talk about alcoholism and recovery and getting the same holy roller diatribe from the same speaker naming biblical passages and quoting them like a southern baptist tent minister every single meeting. I find that to be taking advantage of the philanthropy of the group who lets them continue rather than intervene.

I don't mind the word "god" for "higher power", either. I find the word "God" to be a pretty general reference. Some people attribute a certain religion to the word "god" but really, that's like attributing every reference about John and Paul to the Beatles. (Poor Ringo never made the bible!)

I even enjoy the enthusiasm of holy roller preachers and the art of a good storyteller- I just don't think an AA meeting is the place for it. One of my favorite stories of all time revolves quite a bit around a Presbyterian minister and his family (ARiver Runs Through It by Norman Macclean) and Macclean's passages on religion and flyfishing are just the best. I think religion and politics are topics that are best shared with eloquence, care, and a bit of caution towards the beliefs of everyone else in the room.

lani · MIP Old Timer

Wasnt going to comment on this one but....I agree, politics and religion are pretty taboo to me...leave it out of the meetings! But, if we were to be turned off or judgmental about everything we heard or saw in a meeting, none of us would go...

I heard a lead recently and thought oh my God!!!! (or HP!!! lol) This guy was totally off his rocker! Had it been my first meeting I may have said..Im not like that and Im not going back...it was that crazy.... But I put it in perspective and hoped that everyone that heard his lead would pray for him and it made me realize exactly why I was there! I guess at least he had the balls to get up there in the first place!!!

Yes Phil, take what you can and leave the rest!!!

I also remember thinking when my husband was in years ago that he was getting brainwashed!!!! lol
Hey, maybe we are!!!! lol

nmike · Veteran Member

TM,

I have been to a couple of round-ups recently and there were no clowns. They were all powerful.

In support,
Nancy

KLT · Senior Member

Hey Tipsy. The term that has already been used "Fake it to make it" worked for me. It wasnt long before I had a Higher Power and for this alky thats God.

My 16 year old son came into AA not long ago and he too was a non believer and couldnt get his head around the Higher Power business. His sponsor said to him that a Higher Power could be anything, even a labrador dog in Rochdale (where he got that one from I dont know). It worked for him and now, like me he chooses his Higher Power to be God.

We live in a very programmed house but neither of us are religious nuts (which I dont agree with) and if any reference is made to prayer etc then the words Higher Power are still used as opposed to the word God.

Hope this helps.

jonijoni1 · MIP Old Timer

What percentage of people at the meetings are the "zealots"? From where I sit, these types are few and far between. I just let them have their opinion, and recognize that whatever it is that they believe is obviously keeping THEM sober, so who am I to judge? The only time it has ever really "bothered" me is when I have felt threatened by it, or been looking for a reason to get pissed off.

tlcate · Senior Member

So, how was the round- up, silly! Come here, stir the pot, then leave us hanging.....jeeeez.

wink

tlc

-- Edited by tlcate at 22:39, 2008-10-06

TLH · MIP Old Timer

It isn't the clowns that you have to watch out for- it's the mimes, those crafty devils.

jonijoni1 · MIP Old Timer

OMG, let's beat up on people who are excited about their spirituality??? I think not!! Leave them be!! Take what you want and leave the rest. If they didn't drink today, then whatever they are doing to make that possible is a lot better than wherever they came from when they walked through the doors! I fail to see why anyone would get angry or "squirm" when someone is a little overzealous at a meeting about their own spiritual experience. Who cares? HOW IMPORTANT IS IT?

TLH · MIP Old Timer

I don't get angry. I don't squirm. I do get tired of hearing quotes from the bible in AA. There's a time and place for everything.

If I stood up every meeting and spoke about how I feel my sobriety has been successful in some big way because I don't use the carrot on a stick principle of religion and that a thousand year old, fable that has been for the most part misinterpreted, used selectively and/or misused by modern man doesn't have a whole lot of bearing on my sobriety, and that I feel the strength of not using some imaginary paternal figure has helped me stand on my own two feet- some people would feel that was an attack on their personal ideologies.

I don't do that because I know there are Christians, Atheists, Agnostics, Jews, Muslims, etc... in the room, and my personal religious beliefes are just that- my personal beliefs- it's nobody's business but mine and the god of my interpretation. So instead I try to include everyone's interests and speak about my experience with alcoholism and recovery as an alcoholic- not an agnostic. Because the name of the group is ALCOHOLICS anonymous- believe it or not.

I realize some people don't believe the same stuff as I do, and that's fine. I'm realistic. But if they have a right to preach from the bible in meetings, I have the right to point out that it's not the time or place. (and yes- I have had two people in meetings in the past year repeatedly quoting- at length- from the bible. And nobody- myself included- said a thing because it's an uncomfortable topic and both of them were snowbirds and we knew they'd eventually go back from whence they came.)

"Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon A.A. unity."

BatonRougian · Veteran Member

The book talks about reasons for not bringing up your personal religious beliefs on page 93. Its actually talking about working with a newcomer but there are newcomers in most meetings so it applies. I personally dont like the references to the "Big Big Book". It makes it sound like its advanced Big Book or something. I do realize much of our program came from the book of James but I personally think the Book of James just happened to hit upon the same spiritual principles AA employs much like many other faiths and religions.

jonijoni1 · MIP Old Timer

I understand your point, TLH, but around here, I have heard more quotes from the Eastern Religion books than from the bible, which is no less "religious" than the latter. Did not want to argue with anyone, by the way, and hope no one was offended by my thoughts.

TLH · MIP Old Timer

Someone would be taking on a pretty big challenge trying to offend me discussing things rationally.

No- I'm not offended. I haven't seen much religious stuff on this website either, really- buddhist or christian or whatever. I recall one that got nipped in the bud a year or two back. Discussing spirituality is one thing (just my opinion here) and it's pretty hard to be culturally literate without knowing a bit about the World's major religions, and sometimes in our journey towards (through? into?) sobriety people will refer to their spirituality, and whatever- it's unavoidable and usually a pretty innocuous thing. I personally wasn't referring to someone saying, "I pray every day and god takes care of me" or something general like that which we hear every day from people of all faiths. It's pretty hard to talk about practicing the twelve steps without sometimes making references of that nature. I even used to find it difficult to put my spirituality into those terms, and had to work with the wording so that it made sense (I got over that pretty quick.) No- I had a specific couple people in mind when I initially responded to this- people at my real world groups off the internet- who would quote the bible at length so much that it would be a good portion of their share every time they stood up to share. Coincidentally those couple people also manage to always go on well past the time allotted and damned near refuse to shut up and sit down and let someone else talk.

In light of that I would have to admit that it's not necessarily a religion issue but a rudeness issue, though because these two tend to stand up and rant (somewhat) like a holy roller quoting the bible and shouting Jesus, that makes it pretty common for people to relate the one to the other.

I realized the other day that I wrote something like "Christians, Atheists, Agnostics, Jews, Muslims, etc... "- not really thinking about the Muslim reference. I don't think I've ever met a Muslim AA, though I'm sure there must be one or two. Islam is a religion that sort of frowns on the use of alcohol (huge use of understatement there) and I was sort of chuckling at my mistake. Kind of an oxymoron in the making there somewhere. weirdface

-- Edited by TLH at 05:05, 2008-10-10

KLT · Senior Member

Hey TLH.

When I was just a few weeks sober last year, the weekend before christmas, myself and a friend drove 5 hours to a meeting in Cardiff in Wales and there was a Muslim guy there. I was quite surprised as I had never seen one before when I was around the first time and havent seen one since.

TLH · MIP Old Timer

Well there you have it! We drunks are EVERYWHERE!!!