I'm seeing more discord in our threads lately. I am seriously guilty of stirring it up myself and own up to my part in it. I have seen us using "the message we give to the newcomer" as an excuse to defy traditions and disrespect each other. AA depends on unity and singleness of purpose. It also places principles above personalities.
I'm putting this out there just so we can have like a group conscious about the way we share on here because my bickering with folks brought out the worst in me and newcomers commented negatively on the thread while I was busy "arguing" with others who have been sober a while. It was nuts (on my part).
Is there some way that we can get a consensus on how to put up a more unified front here amongst us regulars so that the message is a friendly and united one? Maybe I'm being too Pollyanna here. Remember guys, I'm admitting to being part of this problem so I'm open to hearing how I could be different? Maybe I need to close threads with bickering in them, but having been the one bickering myself at times and also that just seems like too much censorship.
Thoughts?
Philipld said
Dec 17, 2013
If youre bitching and chewing on here? You aren't out killing people in the street :)
I don't see anything on the board that has changed any... since it started ..many many moons ago
We are all human.....
Never saw an Alky yet..that wasn't opinionated...Im one :)
If another Alky starts to push me...about SHOULD be doing this...and SHOULD be doing that?
Ill tell them to go screw...
The whole programme of Alcoholics Anonymous is Suggested....as a programme of recovery
Of course there are a lot of DAM WELL BETTERS...
But its entirely up to the individual if they do them or not...
All we can do is share...What it was like...Whats its like now...give the Newcommer hope....and try to guide them in the right direction...
Truck on!! :)
Mike D said
Dec 17, 2013
Hi guys and gals, While I'm sort of hesitating to do this (I usually like to stay out of these kinds of A.A. controversies), I hope none of you will mind if I share a point of view. As we all know, it's perfectly normal for humans to disagree with other humans about things that really matter. There are plenty of things in life that greatly matter. And, of course, we're all well aware that how we approach the Steps in sobriety really does matter. The Big Book tells us so. As we also know, we recovering alcoholics are a wonderful human mixture of different emotions, different thoughts, different outlooks, different experiences, different backgrounds, and different viewpoints. We're all very different in lots of ways, but one thing we all have in common is that we all have the same disease, and we all have the same solution to it....the 12 Steps of A.A. As diverse as we are...we have a common bond. Yet, being different humans, we can often see this common solution differently. That's to be expected. It's just part of our humanity.
When a newcomer shares that they're having problems in sobriety, it's very normal for us to want to try to help them. And, we certainly should and we do. We'll usually do that by pointing them toward the common solution which we've all found...the Steps. But, when someone shares on this board in their effort to be helpful, it's pretty darned likely that someone else is going to have a different perspective. This might be where our subjective human differences collide with our objective common bond. I think it's confusing to the newcomer when they see us in the midst of "this collision". Our open arguments may do more harm than good, and only be counter-productive.
Perhaps there's a better way. What if we give our help to the newcomer in our own way, and try to accept and respect the manner in which others give theirs? If that new person sees some little thing from each one of us that they can put to use in their sobriety, it's a win-win situation. We're all human. Let's embrace how different we are.
Comments are welcome. Blessings, Mike D.
Sober Strummer said
Dec 17, 2013
I see more cross pollination causing confusion. Alanon type ideas and recovery posted in with AA recovery.
Seeing that, I will always comment. If I get banned, so be it.
I have seen plenty of people get knickers in a twist at normal meetings. Nothing unique there.
For respecting the traditions, one would seem to respect the steps and message of AA. It makes sense, and I agree. The basic idea for me, is to take the entire program. The traditions are a key part. But to have someone share something that is not the AA program but then try and say the traditions protect it, that seems a bit off. Pick and choose the steps you like, the teachings of the book you like, mix in some alanon, and then share that hot mess with a newcomer. And also claim the traditions as a shield from comments pointing out the truth of the program.
That faulty logic could be applied to 13th stepping being protected under the traditions.
If it is not AA, it is some other program. That is fine if the person seeks the other program. But if someone is seeking AA, then present the AA program.
Newcomers also have some responsibility to read and investigate. They can read and pray!
I don't think anything recent has been too far out. It is how people interact. I learned and felt I had thi ha to work on from it. There was not too much mean spirited banter. We always see sarcasm.
If I see pop psychogy of pseudo AA, I will point toward real AA. It is the only humane thing to do. It is the message of hope.
I applaud your concern for sharing the message of hope in peace and unity.
davep12and12 said
Dec 17, 2013
Mike D wrote:
What if we give our help to the newcomer in our own way, and try to accept and respect the manner in which others give theirs?
Bingo. There is a huge difference between these:
1. Person "A" replies to the newcomer's question with "Here's my experience regarding that issue". Person "B" replies to the newcomer's question with "My experience has been different, and here's mine".
2. Person "A" replies to the newcomer's question with "Here's my experience regarding that issue". Person "B" replies to the newcomer's question with "My experience has been different, here's mine, and person A is wrong and isn't working a good program. Mine is better". Which then instigates a back-and-forth series of increasingly personal attacks, quickly obscuring the experience strength and hope in the original messages.
-- Edited by davep12and12 on Tuesday 17th of December 2013 12:59:27 PM
d_willing said
Dec 17, 2013
davep12and12 wrote:
1. Person "A" replies to the newcomer's question with "Here's my experience regarding that issue". Person "B" replies to the newcomer's question with "My experience has been different, and here's mine".
2. Person "A" replies to the newcomer's question with "Here's my experience regarding that issue". Person "B" replies to the newcomer's question with "My experience has been different, here's mine, and person A is wrong and isn't working a good program. Mine is better". Which then instigates a back-and-forth series of increasingly personal attacks, quickly obscuring the experience strength and hope in the original messages.
RubyTues said
Dec 17, 2013
Dave12and12, I think you nailed it.
As far as I see it, AA meetings are about sharing what it was like, what happened, and what it's like now. I don't see why it should be that different around here. As a newcomer, I benefitted from hearing a broad range of stories and experiences and working the steps with my sponsor. I think it's useful to hear how the program's suggestions work for people personally.
Thanks for starting this, PC. I too am really concerned about what's been going on here.
Stepchild said
Dec 17, 2013
davep12and12 wrote:
2. Person "A" replies to the newcomer's question with "Here's my experience regarding that issue". Person "B" replies to the newcomer's question with "My experience has been different, here's mine, and person A is wrong and isn't working a good program. Mine is better". Which then instigates a back-and-forth series of increasingly personal attacks, quickly obscuring the experience strength and hope in the original messages.
Not mine is better....The program of recovery laid out in the book is better....As a matter of fact...It's not my program...It's THE program.
I don't think the Big Book could be any clearer on the importance of doing the steps from the clear-cut directions they wrote down in it. They don't use words like..
Precisely Exactly Thoroughly
for the fun of it. This is a common solution we should all absolutely agree on...They did. That's why it's written as it is. Here is an example when I hear someone saying they took three years...Or even one year to start their fourth step...
With all the earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start.
Though our decision was a vital and crucial step, (Step 3) it could have little permanent effect unless at once followed by a strenuous effort to face, and to be rid of, the things in ourselves which had been blocking us.
Next we launched out on a course of vigorous action,
That's all for step four.....You seeing anything about taking your time there? My opinion on this...Is if you are doing this program cafeteria style...You're not doing it. Share it on a different site...Or chances are you will be corrected. The advice I was given when I came into AA...."While you are studying the Big Book...Get yourself a dictionary...And even if you think you know what the word means...Look it up...They use these words for a reason." For the newcomer that's serious about this...They'll figure it out...Even if it takes them trial and error....Hopefully they just do it by the book with a sponsor that knows the book. There is one way to do this...One path...And that's the one in the book. For the ones that want to leave the site because they don't like what they are hearing...They'll be back when they've had enough...If they make it back.
davep12and12 said
Dec 17, 2013
.... so Stepchild, based on my comment above, you might instead say something like "My personal experience has been based very closely on the wording in the Big Book. And it has worked very well", with whatever specifics are relevant to the question. When you start saying things like "If you're doing this program cafeteria style, you're not doing it", you are no longer sharing your experience, are you? You're now talking about someone else's experience.
See, the thing is, much of my own experience with the steps closely follows the instructions in the Big Book, similar to your own experience, and like you, it's given me great results for 25 years. And I'm happy to share my experience with newer members who want to hear it. And I'm not shy about speaking up when a sponsee or other new member is clearly just rationalizing alcoholic behavior. But there's a difference between calling someone out on dangerous behavior and calling someone out because their own experience with the steps is different from yours.
Stepchild said
Dec 17, 2013
davep12and12 wrote:
.... so Stepchild, based on my comment above, you might instead say something like "My personal experience has been based very closely on the wording in the Big Book. And it has worked very well", with whatever specifics are relevant to the question. When you start saying things like "If you're doing this program cafeteria style, you're not doing it", you are no longer sharing your experience, are you? You're now talking about someone else's experience.
See, the thing is, much of my own experience with the steps closely follows the instructions in the Big Book, similar to your own experience, and like you, it's given me great results for 25 years. And I'm happy to share my experience with newer members who want to hear it. And I'm not shy about speaking up when a sponsee or other new member is clearly just rationalizing alcoholic behavior. But there's a difference between calling someone out on dangerous behavior and calling someone out because their own experience with the steps is different from yours.
So if you hear someone telling a newcomer that taking what they want...And leaving the rest works...And that it also works to listen to suggestions and just go with what that little voice inside tells them they should do....is acceptable? All that little voice inside me ever told me to do was drink. I mean that goes completely against what this program is about....And I thank God nobody steered me down that path. I'd be dead. I was looking for an easier softer way...And believe me...This alkie would have snatched onto that. And it wouldn't have worked. Am I not responsible as a member of AA on an AA MB to question that? My guess is this is the first introduction to AA for a lot of people...And I think we'd all be doing everyone a favor if we just stuck with the solution in the book. I strongly believe anything else is not AA. If there were alternative paths...They would have included them.
Stepchild said
Dec 17, 2013
On a side note...I really liked that post by SS above....I know now that the person who shared that advice was sober in Alanon for seven years before he went to AA....It got me thinking....When was the last time I went to a meeting and Alanon was brought up?....I can't think of one. It's hard to get through a thread here without it being brought up...Maybe that does have something to do with it. This is an AA site....I would think that showing other alcoholics precisely how it works should be our focus.
Sober Strummer said
Dec 17, 2013
One of the challenges online is you don't see the people around you living out the program and interacting with others.
I have seen many of the Buffet Program followers struggle, act out, and pick up white chips to start over.
We don't have that accountability here. All we have is the written word. That being the case, the written word should be correct, that is per AA literature when it comes to sharing with someone on how to get sober, work the program.
The caveat of how I did things that are different than the program guides should be laid out for the sake of the newcomer. Your story may be that you took 4 years on the first three steps. It is not the normal way, but it may have been your way. Your HP may have carried you as a rebellious child for 3 of those years.
There is a recovery plan in the big book. It is clearly outlined. It is easy to read. There should be no mystery as to what the steps say and the big book says. Arguing out of ignorance in not knowing the big book is silly.
I feel there is a need for respect of the ESH shared, but also it would seem prudent to acknowledge that it is different than the Big Book advises, if the is the case. Fess up if you are not a good example :) we all do!
Face to face meetings are always desirable. This should be in addition to, not in place of working in your home group.
I enjoy the group here. It is a nice place. But a home group is where it's at!
Stepchild said
Dec 17, 2013
Thank you SS...Well put!
davep12and12 said
Dec 17, 2013
Of course you ought to answer the new member's questions with the truth about what works, based on your experience, especially your experience with the steps. Nobody is saying we shouldn't do that. But re-directing our comments away from the new member and turning them toward someone else as a confrontation and judgment against that other person's experience isn't sharing our experience with the new member.
-- Edited by davep12and12 on Tuesday 17th of December 2013 03:40:54 PM
Sober Strummer said
Dec 17, 2013
I agree Dave.
Stepchild said
Dec 17, 2013
I shouldn't have to do that...I like the idea of someone that does this program differently than it's laid out should start with that. Nip it in the bud from the get go. Makes more sense.
Stepchild said
Dec 17, 2013
I don't think you can make it any clearer than this...
The tremendous fact for every one of us is that we have discovered a common solution. We have a way out on which we can absolutely agree, and upon which we can join in brotherly and harmonious action. This is the great news this book carries to those who suffer from alcoholism.
BB pg 17
Absolutely: Definitely and completely; unquestionably.
Lizmccal said
Dec 17, 2013
I feel the unity and singleness of purpose here. I've seen a few bickering post and I'm wondering is it a personal inventory thing or a group conscious/inventory thing?
Just wondering what old timers think. I'm new I don't know s#%
Stepchild said
Dec 17, 2013
Lizmccal wrote:
I'm new I don't know s#%
Me too...All I know is it works if you work it.
pinkchip said
Dec 17, 2013
Most of us sense that real tolerance of other people's shortcomings and viewpoints and a respect for their opinions are attitudes which make us more useful to others.
BB page 19
With regard to how to talk to newcomers
At first engage in general conversation. After a while, turn the talk to some phase of drinking. Tell him enough about your drinking habits, symptoms, and experiences to encourage him to speak of himself. If he wishes to talk, let him do so. You will thus get a better idea of how you ought to proceed.
BB page 91
Your candidate may give reasons why he need not follow ALL of the program. He may rebel at the thought of a drastic housecleaning which requires discussion with other people. Do not contradict such views. Tell him you ONCE felt as he does, BUT you DOUBT whether you would have made much progress had you NOT taken action
BB page 94
that he has no attitude of Holier Than Thou...
no lectures to be endured - these are the conditions we have found most effective. After such an approach many take up their beds and walk again
BB page 18
Don't start out as an evangelist or reformer. Unfortunately a lot of prejudice exists. You will be handicapped if you arouse it. Ministers and doctors are competent and you can learn much from them if you wish, but it happens that because of your own drinking experience you can be uniquely useful to other alcoholics. So cooperate; never criticize. To be helpful is our only aim.
BB page 89
(in reference to the brand newcomer) Don't, at this stage, refer to this book, unless he has seen it and wishes to discuss it. And be careful not to brand him as an alcoholic. Let him draw his own conclusion.
BB page 92
Outline the program of action, explaining how you made a self appraisal, how you straightened out your past and why you are now endeavoring to be helpful to him. It is important for him to realize that your attempt to pass this on to him plays a vital part in your recovery. Actually, he may be helping you more than you are helping him. Make it plain he is under no obligation to you, that you hope only that he will try to help other alcoholics when he escapes his own difficulties. Suggest how important it is that he place the welfare of other people ahead of his own. Make it clear that he is not under pressure, that he needn't see you again if he doesn't want to. You should not be offended if he wants to call it off, for he has helped you more than you have helped him.
BB page 94
*****You will be most successful with alcoholics if you do not exhibit any passion for crusade or reform. Never talk down to an alcoholic from any moral or spiritual hilltop; simply lay out the kit of spiritual tools for his inspection. Show him how they worked with you. Offer him friendship and fellow ship. Tell him that if he wants to get well you will do anything to help."
If he thinks he can do the job in some other way, or prefers some other spiritual approach, encourage him to follow his own conscience.
BB page 95
(OKAY me speaking at this point) So....there is much in the BB about showing temperance, not preaching, allowing time for people to weigh options and grasp the solution when they are ready. Not coming off with a bunch of judgements "shoulds" and being a reformer or evangelical. About talking about yourself first and how it worked for YOU so you can then make a believer out of them. Nobody will become a believer from proseletyzing or telling them they are doing things all wrong or talking down to them. Just my 2 cents.
Stepchild said
Dec 17, 2013
You're talking about a time when these guys were rounding up low bottom drunks and taking them through the steps in a day or two PC....You should know that the introduction of treatment centers has kind of filled that role. Which in my opinion hasn't done AA a whole lot of good...But that's a different thread. I'm guessing most people that come on a message board are just realizing there might be a problem and haven't got up the nerve to go to a meeting yet...Or maybe they are going...But haven't got up the nerve to get a sponsor yet. If someone asks about the steps...I'll stick with what's in the book I'm not going to change that PC. I'll try and tone it down a bit....But when I hear stuff that has nothing to do with this program being offered...That get's under my skin.....These are lives we are talking about here. And I watched people in AA die that did it their way.
Toad said
Dec 17, 2013
" Alcohol finally beat us into a state of reasonableness. "
Read that somewhere.
Stepchild said
Dec 17, 2013
That's how I got here. I had the willingness beaten into me by the great persuader.
pinkchip said
Dec 17, 2013
Likewise. I was a sick, sloppy drunk. I was drinking to die. I feel that AA saved my life.
Sober Strummer said
Dec 17, 2013
I have seen people die that played about with the program. I have done the same many of you have, done the hospital visits, prison visits, psych ward visits. I have been a part of the nearly dead being restored to a new life. This AA thing has some magic under the hood.
To me it feels like the people on the Internet deserve the simple truth of AA based recovery as much as anyone else. All of the other sideline material is available elsewhere. If someone googles AA online, I hope they find it.... I hope they find it here!
What does a newcomer get at your home group? Do they get a blend of self help, other programs, pop psychology, and some guys favorite AA steps?
Or do they get AA? We give out AA literature. Sometimes I give them a big book. I bet your home group does too.
Are Internet seekers less valuable? Are they not worth the time to try and find the answers to their questions from the big book? I think they are worth it. AA worked for me and that is what I share.
What I don't understand, and have not experienced in face to face meetings is this giving newcomers non-AA. Who does that at their home group?
RubyTues said
Dec 17, 2013
Where has anyone given a newcomer non-AA? Given non-AA what?
pinkchip said
Dec 17, 2013
We tell them welcome and keep coming back. We listen and say there is hope. Of course giving them a big book, suggesting a sponsor, working the steps, going to meetings, calling people in the program and being of service are core things we emphasize. First we accept the person and let them feel safe and not judged. Then we offer the solution. At least that is how it worked for me. I came in ranting and depressed and a mess. I was greeted with caring, given a big book...The whole shebang. People told me of other good meetings to go to. Introduced me to others. Some gave me their numbers right away. To me that is AA. People did tell me the steps were the solution also. It was just a total immersion...In a good way but in many ways. I've seen people die from farting around in AA and taking half measures, but seen more people die from alcoholism because the wouldn't go to AA at all or they went once or twice and never came back.
AA needs the welcoming and embracing as well as the folks that will tell you to get to work and those folks need to get along with each other. It is possible to be welcoming and warm while also sticking to the central message. I am probably not a great step teacher. I have too much sappy counselor in me not that I don't know how crucial the steps are. I can share my ESH on the steps well, but I would probably cosign too much bs and therefore someone like stepchild would be better to teach the steps and take someone through them. To me that is the kind of unity we need.
-- Edited by pinkchip on Tuesday 17th of December 2013 07:45:01 PM
-- Edited by pinkchip on Tuesday 17th of December 2013 08:06:31 PM
Sober Strummer said
Dec 17, 2013
I came in sick from a week long binge of booze, weed, and some IV drugs I tried. I was too sick to go anywhere for a few days, then went to meetings daily.
Steps started after a few days. I loved AA. Literally. I loved my friends, my group, the message, the working with others. I know I made more than one meeting a day for the first decade!
We do the same Pink. They get numbers on a 5x7 card that has the meeting schedule on it. There are about 15 or so leaflets. It is a happy day when we see new faces.
Maybe I am lucky, or crazy, or a mix. My sponsor and his wife are awesome. We have done conventions and even a vacation at the beach together. The home group has a camping club.
There is no other organization on earth I love more than AA.
That is the message I want to share. It may get lost in Internet squabbles, and that would be a shame.
Stepchild said
Dec 17, 2013
Clarence Snyder...One of the original one hundred that helped with putting the book together said...We don't get here unless we are completely hopeless....I'll take that a step further....I don't think a lot of people are willing to make the effort...Go to any length...Unless they are completely hopeless. I know I wasn't....I fought it to the end. I wasn't introduced to AA until I was 51 years old....I knew nothing about it. What I learned is from the book...And from what people that had done what's in the book have taught me. I made the effort to study it...And more importantly...Do what it said to do...Exactly....With the timeline they set down. I launched into action. Does this sound like something that's harsh?
We do not like to pronounce any individual as alcoholic, but you can quickly diagnose yourself. Step over to the nearest barroom and try some controlled drinking. Try to drink and stop abruptly. Try it more than once. It will not take long for you to decide, if you are honest with yourself about it. It may be worth a bad case of jitters if you get a full knowledge of your condition.
BB pg 31
Some people think so....I didn't. I didn't have to try it either. I knew it....I was hopeless.
If you're a real alcoholic like they describe in the book quite nicely....Like me. You'll either become willing to completely give yourself to this simple program....Or it will kill you. I believe that...I'm glad I found it.
pinkchip said
Dec 17, 2013
That did not sound harsh stepchild. That was your ESH and it was owned by you, authentic and pure. Thank you for that. Seriously.
Stepchild said
Dec 17, 2013
Sober Strummer wrote:
What I don't understand, and have not experienced in face to face meetings is this giving newcomers non-AA. Who does that at their home group?
I know here in Florida AA is pretty strong...And we have a ton of oldtimers that come down from up north and Canada for the winter....40...50 years sober in AA oldtimers. It's like going to school for me...And they don't mess around. If someone is getting off track....They'll shut you right up. I respect that. One hour is not enough time for non - AA related bullshit. I go to what meetings they go to.....I hang out with them....I guess I stick with the winners.
pinkchip said
Dec 17, 2013
I am in Florida too. What area are you in SC?
Stepchild said
Dec 17, 2013
Naples....Oldtimers town.
pinkchip said
Dec 17, 2013
Due east here. Ft. Lauderdale
Stepchild said
Dec 17, 2013
Party town....I think God put me in Naples for a reason....Good recovery and it shuts down at 9:00.
pinkchip said
Dec 17, 2013
Wherever there are lots of bars and such, there's lots of AA. It's the best and worst here and I have done both in this town.
shydryguy said
Dec 18, 2013
I'm brand new...I'll serf around for a week and let you know how I've been treated :p
justadrunk said
Dec 18, 2013
We find strength in our recovery 'couple' friends and certain people - in the literature, and else where. God could and would if he were sought.
I plan to start driving to minneapolis since it's only a couple hours away one weekend per month in the summer and stay for a whole weekend just to mostly go to meetings... that and they have a great zoo...
What can I expect out of meetings here really - they worked for me - they are not perfect. It's Wisconsin. I'm just lucky to have sobered up while living here close to the city I do... but I'm way out in the country and had I lost my license or something like that, I would have been screwed. Other times I sobered up on my own I lived in places with no AA at all. Of course I could only pull it off for so long on my own.
If this were 60 years ago - it would have been me, the book and a telephone with the very rare meeting... but that wouldn't have looked much different from what everyone was doing...
And didn't people have operators listening in on phone conversations back then? Would people even use the phone or were they too fearful of their anonymity being broken. My dad said my Grandma used to listen in on the phone quietly just for entertainment.... she was the town gossip apparently... lol
-- Edited by justadrunk on Wednesday 18th of December 2013 09:02:30 AM
Fyne Spirit said
Dec 18, 2013
This is a great thread PC, and I wish I had more time to contribute. I can offer a couple of quick points.
Not so long ago I was told this is not ans "AA" site and therefore the traditions have no place here. I disagree. When I receive an email from this site it is signed Alcoholics Anonymous, and I am in the AA section of this board. I don't see any reason we are not an AA group. We gather for the sole purpose of sobriety, and there is no outside affiliation involved. The site itself is really no different to a bricks and mortar meeting room and the group could disengage if it wished and start somewhere else. So I believe the traditions would be a useful guide in how we conduct our affairs here.
There has also been discussion around pointing out the directions in the book, and sharing esh (our story). The book says we have a common problem and a common solution. It doesn't say we have common stories. Our esh is just that, our story, but we should not be restricted to that when our main job is to carry "this message" to alcoholics (the common solution)
Consider how AA got started in many places around the world. One man with this book, a bit of medical and religious help, and virtually no esh about how to work the program. It worked so well because guys like this took their big book and showed other alcoholics what it contianed, and together they learned how to apply it in their lives. Through sharing the solution, they were able to develop some esh in recovery, not the other way around.
Even in the early days, according to Bill, as many as 4 out of 5 newcomers didn't stay initially because they didn't like the programme or for some other reason. Many of those eventually came back. So its not new for people to not like the AA medicine. But I think SC is trying to make the point that we ought to tell the newcomer exactly what the program is, and not mislead them by telling them things that we know will not work, and are sometimes dangerous.
Take what you like etc is based on it being a suggested program. Nowhere can I find the suggestion that it will work if you only do some of it, so telling a newcomer they can do this (with the implication that they can still recover) is dishonest because we know that half measures avail us nothing.
Just don't drink and go to meetings is an impossibility for the real alcoholic. Telling him to do this is as effective as telling someone with severe depression to just have a nice day. Not drinking actually brings out the alcoholism, and much more is required for its treatment.
Take one step a year ? Need I say more? Some of these "fellowship" ideas and practices bear little realtion to the program in the Book.
I believe even the newest newcomer can tap into that amazing source of experience that is the big book, and suggest solutions from there for any of us. It doesn't have to be "their ESH". Quoting the ESH of the first 100, which is the basis of our whole society, which millions of us have put to the test and found to be true, is likely to be a lot more helpful to the suffering alcoholic than some random personal idea, or other popular dogma.
Thanks PC. I hope we try and apply the traditions a little more here.
God bless,
MikeH.
Stepchild said
Dec 18, 2013
I was wondering where you were.
pinkchip said
Dec 18, 2013
Thank you fine spirit. That was also a great post.
Sober Strummer said
Dec 19, 2013
Great thread idea Pink.
I feel there is a bit of focus developing here.
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I'm seeing more discord in our threads lately. I am seriously guilty of stirring it up myself and own up to my part in it. I have seen us using "the message we give to the newcomer" as an excuse to defy traditions and disrespect each other. AA depends on unity and singleness of purpose. It also places principles above personalities.
I'm putting this out there just so we can have like a group conscious about the way we share on here because my bickering with folks brought out the worst in me and newcomers commented negatively on the thread while I was busy "arguing" with others who have been sober a while. It was nuts (on my part).
Is there some way that we can get a consensus on how to put up a more unified front here amongst us regulars so that the message is a friendly and united one? Maybe I'm being too Pollyanna here. Remember guys, I'm admitting to being part of this problem so I'm open to hearing how I could be different? Maybe I need to close threads with bickering in them, but having been the one bickering myself at times and also that just seems like too much censorship.
Thoughts?
If youre bitching and chewing on here? You aren't out killing people in the street :)
I don't see anything on the board that has changed any... since it started ..many many moons ago
We are all human.....
Never saw an Alky yet..that wasn't opinionated...Im one :)
If another Alky starts to push me...about SHOULD be doing this...and SHOULD be doing that?
Ill tell them to go screw...
The whole programme of Alcoholics Anonymous is Suggested....as a programme of recovery
Of course there are a lot of DAM WELL BETTERS...
But its entirely up to the individual if they do them or not...
All we can do is share...What it was like...Whats its like now...give the Newcommer hope....and try to guide them in the right direction...
Truck on!! :)
Hi guys and gals, While I'm sort of hesitating to do this (I usually like to stay out of these kinds of A.A. controversies), I hope none of you will mind if I share a point of view. As we all know, it's perfectly normal for humans to disagree with other humans about things that really matter. There are plenty of things in life that greatly matter. And, of course, we're all well aware that how we approach the Steps in sobriety really does matter. The Big Book tells us so. As we also know, we recovering alcoholics are a wonderful human mixture of different emotions, different thoughts, different outlooks, different experiences, different backgrounds, and different viewpoints. We're all very different in lots of ways, but one thing we all have in common is that we all have the same disease, and we all have the same solution to it....the 12 Steps of A.A. As diverse as we are...we have a common bond. Yet, being different humans, we can often see this common solution differently. That's to be expected. It's just part of our humanity.
When a newcomer shares that they're having problems in sobriety, it's very normal for us to want to try to help them. And, we certainly should and we do. We'll usually do that by pointing them toward the common solution which we've all found...the Steps. But, when someone shares on this board in their effort to be helpful, it's pretty darned likely that someone else is going to have a different perspective. This might be where our subjective human differences collide with our objective common bond. I think it's confusing to the newcomer when they see us in the midst of "this collision". Our open arguments may do more harm than good, and only be counter-productive.
Perhaps there's a better way. What if we give our help to the newcomer in our own way, and try to accept and respect the manner in which others give theirs? If that new person sees some little thing from each one of us that they can put to use in their sobriety, it's a win-win situation. We're all human. Let's embrace how different we are.
Comments are welcome. Blessings, Mike D.
Bingo. There is a huge difference between these:
1. Person "A" replies to the newcomer's question with "Here's my experience regarding that issue". Person "B" replies to the newcomer's question with "My experience has been different, and here's mine".
2. Person "A" replies to the newcomer's question with "Here's my experience regarding that issue". Person "B" replies to the newcomer's question with "My experience has been different, here's mine, and person A is wrong and isn't working a good program. Mine is better". Which then instigates a back-and-forth series of increasingly personal attacks, quickly obscuring the experience strength and hope in the original messages.
-- Edited by davep12and12 on Tuesday 17th of December 2013 12:59:27 PM
As far as I see it, AA meetings are about sharing what it was like, what happened, and what it's like now. I don't see why it should be that different around here. As a newcomer, I benefitted from hearing a broad range of stories and experiences and working the steps with my sponsor. I think it's useful to hear how the program's suggestions work for people personally.
Thanks for starting this, PC. I too am really concerned about what's been going on here.
Not mine is better....The program of recovery laid out in the book is better....As a matter of fact...It's not my program...It's THE program.
I don't think the Big Book could be any clearer on the importance of doing the steps from the clear-cut directions they wrote down in it. They don't use words like..
Precisely
Exactly
Thoroughly
for the fun of it. This is a common solution we should all absolutely agree on...They did. That's why it's written as it is. Here is an example when I hear someone saying they took three years...Or even one year to start their fourth step...
With all the earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start.
Though our decision was a vital and crucial step, (Step 3) it could have little permanent effect unless at once followed by a strenuous effort to face, and to be rid of, the things in ourselves which had been blocking us.
Next we launched out on a course of vigorous action,
That's all for step four.....You seeing anything about taking your time there? My opinion on this...Is if you are doing this program cafeteria style...You're not doing it. Share it on a different site...Or chances are you will be corrected. The advice I was given when I came into AA...."While you are studying the Big Book...Get yourself a dictionary...And even if you think you know what the word means...Look it up...They use these words for a reason." For the newcomer that's serious about this...They'll figure it out...Even if it takes them trial and error....Hopefully they just do it by the book with a sponsor that knows the book. There is one way to do this...One path...And that's the one in the book. For the ones that want to leave the site because they don't like what they are hearing...They'll be back when they've had enough...If they make it back.
.... so Stepchild, based on my comment above, you might instead say something like "My personal experience has been based very closely on the wording in the Big Book. And it has worked very well", with whatever specifics are relevant to the question. When you start saying things like "If you're doing this program cafeteria style, you're not doing it", you are no longer sharing your experience, are you? You're now talking about someone else's experience.
See, the thing is, much of my own experience with the steps closely follows the instructions in the Big Book, similar to your own experience, and like you, it's given me great results for 25 years. And I'm happy to share my experience with newer members who want to hear it. And I'm not shy about speaking up when a sponsee or other new member is clearly just rationalizing alcoholic behavior. But there's a difference between calling someone out on dangerous behavior and calling someone out because their own experience with the steps is different from yours.
So if you hear someone telling a newcomer that taking what they want...And leaving the rest works...And that it also works to listen to suggestions and just go with what that little voice inside tells them they should do....is acceptable? All that little voice inside me ever told me to do was drink. I mean that goes completely against what this program is about....And I thank God nobody steered me down that path. I'd be dead. I was looking for an easier softer way...And believe me...This alkie would have snatched onto that. And it wouldn't have worked. Am I not responsible as a member of AA on an AA MB to question that? My guess is this is the first introduction to AA for a lot of people...And I think we'd all be doing everyone a favor if we just stuck with the solution in the book. I strongly believe anything else is not AA. If there were alternative paths...They would have included them.
On a side note...I really liked that post by SS above....I know now that the person who shared that advice was sober in Alanon for seven years before he went to AA....It got me thinking....When was the last time I went to a meeting and Alanon was brought up?....I can't think of one. It's hard to get through a thread here without it being brought up...Maybe that does have something to do with it. This is an AA site....I would think that showing other alcoholics precisely how it works should be our focus.
Of course you ought to answer the new member's questions with the truth about what works, based on your experience, especially your experience with the steps. Nobody is saying we shouldn't do that. But re-directing our comments away from the new member and turning them toward someone else as a confrontation and judgment against that other person's experience isn't sharing our experience with the new member.
-- Edited by davep12and12 on Tuesday 17th of December 2013 03:40:54 PM
I don't think you can make it any clearer than this...
The tremendous fact for every one of us is that we have discovered a common solution. We have a way out on which we can absolutely agree, and upon which we can join in brotherly and harmonious action. This is the great news this book carries to those who suffer from alcoholism.
BB pg 17
Absolutely: Definitely and completely; unquestionably.
Just wondering what old timers think. I'm new I don't know s#%
Me too...All I know is it works if you work it.
BB page 19
With regard to how to talk to newcomers
At first engage in general conversation. After a while, turn the talk to some phase of drinking. Tell him enough about your drinking habits, symptoms, and experiences to encourage him to speak of himself. If he wishes to talk, let him do so. You will thus get a better idea of how you ought to proceed.
BB page 91
Your candidate may give reasons why he need not follow ALL of the program. He may rebel at the thought of a drastic housecleaning which requires discussion with other people. Do not contradict such views. Tell him you ONCE felt as he does, BUT you DOUBT whether you would have made much progress had you NOT taken action
BB page 94
that he has no attitude of Holier Than Thou...
no lectures to be endured - these are the conditions we have found most effective. After such an approach many take up their beds and walk again
BB page 18
Don't start out as an evangelist or reformer. Unfortunately a lot of prejudice exists. You will be handicapped if you arouse it. Ministers and doctors are competent and you can learn much from them if you wish, but it happens that because of your own drinking experience you can be uniquely useful to other alcoholics. So cooperate; never criticize. To be helpful is our only aim.
BB page 89
(in reference to the brand newcomer) Don't, at this stage, refer to this book, unless he has seen it and wishes to discuss it. And be careful not to brand him as an alcoholic. Let him draw his own conclusion.
BB page 92
Outline the program of action, explaining how you made a self appraisal, how you straightened out your past and why you are now endeavoring to be helpful to him. It is important for him to realize that your attempt to pass this on to him plays a vital part in your recovery. Actually, he may be helping you more than you are helping him. Make it plain he is under no obligation to you, that you hope only that he will try to help other alcoholics when he escapes his own difficulties. Suggest how important it is that he place the welfare of other people ahead of his own. Make it clear that he is not under pressure, that he needn't see you again if he doesn't want to. You should not be offended if he wants to call it off, for he has helped you more than you have helped him.
BB page 94
*****You will be most successful with alcoholics if you do not exhibit any passion for crusade or reform. Never talk down to an alcoholic from any moral or spiritual hilltop; simply lay out the kit of spiritual tools for his inspection. Show him how they worked with you. Offer him friendship and fellow ship. Tell him that if he wants to get well you will do anything to help."
If he thinks he can do the job in some other way, or prefers some other spiritual approach, encourage him to follow his own conscience.
BB page 95
(OKAY me speaking at this point) So....there is much in the BB about showing temperance, not preaching, allowing time for people to weigh options and grasp the solution when they are ready. Not coming off with a bunch of judgements "shoulds" and being a reformer or evangelical. About talking about yourself first and how it worked for YOU so you can then make a believer out of them. Nobody will become a believer from proseletyzing or telling them they are doing things all wrong or talking down to them. Just my 2 cents.
You're talking about a time when these guys were rounding up low bottom drunks and taking them through the steps in a day or two PC....You should know that the introduction of treatment centers has kind of filled that role. Which in my opinion hasn't done AA a whole lot of good...But that's a different thread. I'm guessing most people that come on a message board are just realizing there might be a problem and haven't got up the nerve to go to a meeting yet...Or maybe they are going...But haven't got up the nerve to get a sponsor yet. If someone asks about the steps...I'll stick with what's in the book I'm not going to change that PC. I'll try and tone it down a bit....But when I hear stuff that has nothing to do with this program being offered...That get's under my skin.....These are lives we are talking about here. And I watched people in AA die that did it their way.
Read that somewhere.
To me it feels like the people on the Internet deserve the simple truth of AA based recovery as much as anyone else. All of the other sideline material is available elsewhere. If someone googles AA online, I hope they find it.... I hope they find it here!
What does a newcomer get at your home group? Do they get a blend of self help, other programs, pop psychology, and some guys favorite AA steps?
Or do they get AA? We give out AA literature. Sometimes I give them a big book. I bet your home group does too.
Are Internet seekers less valuable? Are they not worth the time to try and find the answers to their questions from the big book? I think they are worth it. AA worked for me and that is what I share.
What I don't understand, and have not experienced in face to face meetings is this giving newcomers non-AA. Who does that at their home group?
We tell them welcome and keep coming back. We listen and say there is hope. Of course giving them a big book, suggesting a sponsor, working the steps, going to meetings, calling people in the program and being of service are core things we emphasize. First we accept the person and let them feel safe and not judged. Then we offer the solution. At least that is how it worked for me. I came in ranting and depressed and a mess. I was greeted with caring, given a big book...The whole shebang. People told me of other good meetings to go to. Introduced me to others. Some gave me their numbers right away. To me that is AA. People did tell me the steps were the solution also. It was just a total immersion...In a good way but in many ways. I've seen people die from farting around in AA and taking half measures, but seen more people die from alcoholism because the wouldn't go to AA at all or they went once or twice and never came back.
AA needs the welcoming and embracing as well as the folks that will tell you to get to work and those folks need to get along with each other. It is possible to be welcoming and warm while also sticking to the central message. I am probably not a great step teacher. I have too much sappy counselor in me not that I don't know how crucial the steps are. I can share my ESH on the steps well, but I would probably cosign too much bs and therefore someone like stepchild would be better to teach the steps and take someone through them. To me that is the kind of unity we need.
-- Edited by pinkchip on Tuesday 17th of December 2013 07:45:01 PM
-- Edited by pinkchip on Tuesday 17th of December 2013 08:06:31 PM
Steps started after a few days. I loved AA. Literally. I loved my friends, my group, the message, the working with others. I know I made more than one meeting a day for the first decade!
We do the same Pink. They get numbers on a 5x7 card that has the meeting schedule on it. There are about 15 or so leaflets. It is a happy day when we see new faces.
Maybe I am lucky, or crazy, or a mix. My sponsor and his wife are awesome. We have done conventions and even a vacation at the beach together. The home group has a camping club.
There is no other organization on earth I love more than AA.
That is the message I want to share. It may get lost in Internet squabbles, and that would be a shame.
Clarence Snyder...One of the original one hundred that helped with putting the book together said...We don't get here unless we are completely hopeless....I'll take that a step further....I don't think a lot of people are willing to make the effort...Go to any length...Unless they are completely hopeless. I know I wasn't....I fought it to the end. I wasn't introduced to AA until I was 51 years old....I knew nothing about it. What I learned is from the book...And from what people that had done what's in the book have taught me. I made the effort to study it...And more importantly...Do what it said to do...Exactly....With the timeline they set down. I launched into action. Does this sound like something that's harsh?
We do not like to pronounce any individual as alcoholic, but you can quickly diagnose yourself. Step over to the nearest barroom and try some controlled drinking. Try to drink and stop abruptly. Try it more than once. It will not take long for you to decide, if you are honest with yourself about it. It may be worth a bad case of jitters if you get a full knowledge of your condition.
BB pg 31
Some people think so....I didn't. I didn't have to try it either. I knew it....I was hopeless.
If you're a real alcoholic like they describe in the book quite nicely....Like me. You'll either become willing to completely give yourself to this simple program....Or it will kill you. I believe that...I'm glad I found it.
I know here in Florida AA is pretty strong...And we have a ton of oldtimers that come down from up north and Canada for the winter....40...50 years sober in AA oldtimers. It's like going to school for me...And they don't mess around. If someone is getting off track....They'll shut you right up. I respect that. One hour is not enough time for non - AA related bullshit. I go to what meetings they go to.....I hang out with them....I guess I stick with the winners.
We find strength in our recovery 'couple' friends and certain people - in the literature, and else where. God could and would if he were sought.
I plan to start driving to minneapolis since it's only a couple hours away one weekend per month in the summer and stay for a whole weekend just to mostly go to meetings... that and they have a great zoo...
What can I expect out of meetings here really - they worked for me - they are not perfect. It's Wisconsin. I'm just lucky to have sobered up while living here close to the city I do... but I'm way out in the country and had I lost my license or something like that, I would have been screwed. Other times I sobered up on my own I lived in places with no AA at all. Of course I could only pull it off for so long on my own.
If this were 60 years ago - it would have been me, the book and a telephone with the very rare meeting... but that wouldn't have looked much different from what everyone was doing...
And didn't people have operators listening in on phone conversations back then? Would people even use the phone or were they too fearful of their anonymity being broken. My dad said my Grandma used to listen in on the phone quietly just for entertainment.... she was the town gossip apparently... lol
-- Edited by justadrunk on Wednesday 18th of December 2013 09:02:30 AM
Not so long ago I was told this is not ans "AA" site and therefore the traditions have no place here. I disagree. When I receive an email from this site it is signed Alcoholics Anonymous, and I am in the AA section of this board. I don't see any reason we are not an AA group. We gather for the sole purpose of sobriety, and there is no outside affiliation involved. The site itself is really no different to a bricks and mortar meeting room and the group could disengage if it wished and start somewhere else. So I believe the traditions would be a useful guide in how we conduct our affairs here.
There has also been discussion around pointing out the directions in the book, and sharing esh (our story). The book says we have a common problem and a common solution. It doesn't say we have common stories. Our esh is just that, our story, but we should not be restricted to that when our main job is to carry "this message" to alcoholics (the common solution)
Consider how AA got started in many places around the world. One man with this book, a bit of medical and religious help, and virtually no esh about how to work the program. It worked so well because guys like this took their big book and showed other alcoholics what it contianed, and together they learned how to apply it in their lives. Through sharing the solution, they were able to develop some esh in recovery, not the other way around.
Even in the early days, according to Bill, as many as 4 out of 5 newcomers didn't stay initially because they didn't like the programme or for some other reason. Many of those eventually came back. So its not new for people to not like the AA medicine. But I think SC is trying to make the point that we ought to tell the newcomer exactly what the program is, and not mislead them by telling them things that we know will not work, and are sometimes dangerous.
Take what you like etc is based on it being a suggested program. Nowhere can I find the suggestion that it will work if you only do some of it, so telling a newcomer they can do this (with the implication that they can still recover) is dishonest because we know that half measures avail us nothing.
Just don't drink and go to meetings is an impossibility for the real alcoholic. Telling him to do this is as effective as telling someone with severe depression to just have a nice day. Not drinking actually brings out the alcoholism, and much more is required for its treatment.
Take one step a year ? Need I say more? Some of these "fellowship" ideas and practices bear little realtion to the program in the Book.
I believe even the newest newcomer can tap into that amazing source of experience that is the big book, and suggest solutions from there for any of us. It doesn't have to be "their ESH". Quoting the ESH of the first 100, which is the basis of our whole society, which millions of us have put to the test and found to be true, is likely to be a lot more helpful to the suffering alcoholic than some random personal idea, or other popular dogma.
Thanks PC. I hope we try and apply the traditions a little more here.
God bless,
MikeH.
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