Page 20, paragraph 1: "Our very lives, as ex-problem drinkers depend upon our constant thought of others and how we may help meet their needs."
Page 97, paragraph 2: "Helping others is the foundation stone of your recovery. A kindly act once in a while isn't enough. You have to act the Good Samaritan every day, if need be. It may mean the loss of many nights' sleep, great interference with your pleasures, interruptions to your business. It may mean sharing your money and your home, counseling frantic wives and relatives, innumerable trips to police courts, sanitariums, hospitals, jails and asylums. Your telephone may jangle at any time of the day or night. "
Page 14-15: "For if an alcoholic failed to perfect and enlarge his spiritual life through work and self-sacrifice for others, he could not survive the certain trials and low spots ahead."
Page 62, paragraph 2: "Selfishness, self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles"
Page 62, paragraph 3: "So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making. They arise out of ourselves, and the alcoholic is an extreme example of self-will run riot, though he usually doesn't think so. Above everything, we alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness. We must, or it kill us!"
betterthanyesterday52 said
Dec 11, 2013
Interesting soberstrummer. I have wondered that myself. Maybe it is considered "selfish" in that we have to take care of our own sobriety first, and that by doing so we are then able to help others? For example I was considering not attending a particular meeting which I really enjoyed until it got hairy during sharing. Really scared me....I was doing service work there and felt really good about helping in some way. I felt uncomfortable going there the next couple of times. So I am taking a breather and going to other meetings and think about if I want to go back. I am on foot and this is the only location I can do coffee and set up for right now because other meetings I depend on rides and can't get there early enough to make coffee. But the discomfort I feel there is getting in the way on me focusing on the shares and as much as I like doing the coffee and feel like I am doing service work, I have to be selfish and think of what's best for me and my sobriety first and foremost. So I am cleaning up after some of the other meetings I go to.
I am not sure if I am making any sense and may have missed the point, but just wanted to share, I guess.
Thanks for posting.
Stepchild said
Dec 12, 2013
Good answer BTY....Here is what Bill W. had to say on the subject.
I can see why you are disturbed to hear some A.A. speakers say, "A.A. is a selfish program." The word "selfish" ordinarily implies that one is acquisitive, demanding, and thoughtless of the welfare of others. Of course, the A.A. way of life does not at all imply such undesirable traits.
What do these speakers mean? Well, any theologian will tell you that the salvation of his own soul is the highest vocation that a man can have. Without salvation -- however we may define this -- he will have little or nothing. For us if A.A., there is even more urgency.
If we cannot or will not achieve sobriety, then we become truly lost, right in the here and now. We are of no value to anyone, including ourselves, until we find salvation from alcohol. Therefore, our own recovery and spiritual growth have to come first-- a right and necessary kind of self-concern.
As Bill Sees It pg 81
Sober Strummer said
Dec 12, 2013
It is a program of seeming paradoxes, in my opinion.
How do I reconcile those thoughts? I also agree that in the saving of ourselves, which we don't supply the power for, we just supply the willingness, we are of service to others. Our HP uses us, prompts us, to be of service. For me, I am like a fork in the silverware drawer God uses. I am willing to do my part to keep me clean, and God puts me on the table of service for use. Just like Bill says, I must be sober to be of use. The Third Step Prayer comes to mind.
Third Step Prayer
God, I offer myself to Thee to build with me and to do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of life. May I do Thy will always!
Sober Strummer said
Dec 12, 2013
betterthanyesterday52 wrote:
Interesting soberstrummer. I have wondered that myself. Maybe it is considered "selfish" in that we have to take care of our own sobriety first, and that by doing so we are then able to help others? For example I was considering not attending a particular meeting which I really enjoyed until it got hairy during sharing. Really scared me....I was doing service work there and felt really good about helping in some way. I felt uncomfortable going there the next couple of times. So I am taking a breather and going to other meetings and think about if I want to go back. I am on foot and this is the only location I can do coffee and set up for right now because other meetings I depend on rides and can't get there early enough to make coffee. But the discomfort I feel there is getting in the way on me focusing on the shares and as much as I like doing the coffee and feel like I am doing service work, I have to be selfish and think of what's best for me and my sobriety first and foremost. So I am cleaning up after some of the other meetings I go to. I am not sure if I am making any sense and may have missed the point, but just wanted to share, I guess. Thanks for posting.
I get your feelings. Confrontation can be uncomfortable. People asking for money, or some obvious drunk ones or off ones hitting on women happens too. We try and be there for and with our women friends and members. It also is a reminder of what awaits. Another trip out drinking, and I may be the guy that is a bit off, with some brain damage.
I hope you find a compatible place to be of service and enjoy personal growth.
pinkchip said
Dec 12, 2013
You are right. It is a program of paradoxes but I understand where it comes from. I believe they consulted Jung in the making of the the BB and there are archetypes underlying the principles of the steps and the program in general. Hence, there is the archetype where selfish is at one end and selfless is at the other. The BB really seems to be getting at balance so there are examples where one needs to more towards the middle of this archetype. We can't be selfless at the expense of ourselves. So I think this is where the paradoxes arise - because we want to live the principles. We want to be honest - but not brutally honest (hence you have a program of honesty where you pray for restraint of pen and tongue right? Just another example) Or also a program where the 1 thing you have to change is everything but they tell you not to make any major changes for a year. (I know all these things are not in the BB either but they are things I hear over and over again in the program). I recognize some paradoxes are because of things not in the BB that people have just pulled out of their butts. (said for the benefit of stepchild -wink - JK).
Stepchild said
Dec 12, 2013
I believe these four paradoxes were acually on the jacket of the second edition of the big book...On the binder.
The Four Paradoxes of the Alcoholics Anonymous Program
1.We SURRENDER TO WIN. On the face of it, surrendering certainly does not seem like winning. But it is in A.A. Only after we have come to the end of our rope, hit a stone wall in some aspect of our lives beyond which we can go no further; only when we hit "bottom" in despair and surrender, can we accomplish sobriety which we could never accomplish before. We must, and we do, surrender in order to win.
2.We GIVE AWAY TO KEEP IT. That seems absurd and untrue. How can you keep anything if you give it away? But in order to keep whatever it is we get in A.A., we must go about giving it away to others, for no fees or rewards of any kind. When we cannot afford to give away what we have received so freely in A.A., we had better get ready for our next "drunk." It will happen every time. We've got to continue to give it away in order to keep it.
3.We SUFFER TO GET WELL. There is no way to escape the terrible suffering of remorse and regret and shame and embarrassment, which starts us on the road to getting well from our affliction. There is no new way to shake out a hangover. It's painful. And for us, necessarily so. I told this to a friend of mine as he sat weaving to and fro on the side of the bed, in terrible shape, about to die for some paraldehyde. I said, "Lost John"-that's his nickname-"Lost John, you know you're going to have to do a certain amount of shaking sooner or later." "Well," he said, "for God's sake let's make it later!" We suffer to get well.
4.We DIE TO LIVE. That is a beautiful paradox straight out of the Biblical idea of being "born again" or "in losing one's life to find it." When we work at our Twelve Steps, the old life of guzzling and fuzzy thinking, and all that goes with it, gradually dies, and we acquire a different and a better way of life. As our shortcomings are removed, one life of us dies, and another life of us lives. We in A.A. die to live.
From "THE PROFESSOR AND THE PARADOX" page 341 of the Second Edition of the book, Alcoholics Anonymous
Sober Strummer said
Dec 12, 2013
Thank you all for the great replies. i love the perspectives!
In thinking of constructive threads, ones like the great discussion meeting I fondly remember, I will probably borrow and post up those paradoxes once a week. All of the energy and comments that went into the thread about newcomers go me thinking about how we handled the constant flow of new people in my home group. So I will try and be part of the solution alongside all of you. Together in the lifeboat :)
This topic feels like a bit of the last paradox. We die to live. I remember Pappy replied something like that once to one of my posts. It does really feel like a different life now. The old life died. A seed of faith watered and shined on by my God has grown into a new life.
One thing I found utterly amazing is that I put down playing guitar for about 3 years when I first started the AA program. In time I have picked up a few of my old hobbies. Most are new though. I play now better and more than ever!
The saying is that it is a selfish program. I feel like it is a new self program! The time I spend is discovering and developing that new self.
betterthanyesterday52 said
Dec 12, 2013
What a great thread....love the BB quotes and the perspectives as well. I love Sober's quote...."For me, I am like a fork in the silverware drawer God uses. I am willing to do my part to keep me clean, and God puts me on the table of service for use." And pink chip...maybe some Visine would help with that wink? Sure clears up mine....well, sometimes....:( ((((everybody)))))
-- Edited by betterthanyesterday52 on Thursday 12th of December 2013 11:04:53 AM
Pythonpappy said
Dec 12, 2013
Wow, ... What an exceptionally good thread ... thanks to all who've shared ... Really good stuff there Stepdude ... ... ...
Pappy
Db1105 said
Dec 14, 2013
I was taught that AA is a self-less program. We keep what we have by giving it away. It all started with one alcoholic helping another suffering alcoholic.
Sober Strummer said
Dec 14, 2013
Db1105 wrote:
I was taught that AA is a self-less program. We keep what we have by giving it away. It all started with one alcoholic helping another suffering alcoholic.
I like that!
i was told we re like sponges. We soak up love and life, then squeeze it out in service. Only when used will there be room for more.
if we refuse to be used, we are still like a sponge. We sit, we soak, and we sour!
peterjohnson said
Jan 8, 2024
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frederickgragg said
October 8th
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Is this true? Think on these Big Book quotes.
Page 20, paragraph 1: "Our very lives, as ex-problem drinkers depend upon our constant thought of others and how we may help meet their needs."
Page 97, paragraph 2: "Helping others is the foundation stone of your recovery. A kindly act once in a while isn't enough. You have to act the Good Samaritan every day, if need be. It may mean the loss of many nights' sleep, great interference with your pleasures, interruptions to your business. It may mean sharing your money and your home, counseling frantic wives and relatives, innumerable trips to police courts, sanitariums, hospitals, jails and asylums. Your telephone may jangle at any time of the day or night. "
Page 14-15: "For if an alcoholic failed to perfect and enlarge his spiritual life through work and self-sacrifice for others, he could not survive the certain trials and low spots ahead."
Page 62, paragraph 2: "Selfishness, self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles"
Page 62, paragraph 3: "So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making. They arise out of ourselves, and the alcoholic is an extreme example of self-will run riot, though he usually doesn't think so. Above everything, we alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness. We must, or it kill us!"
I am not sure if I am making any sense and may have missed the point, but just wanted to share, I guess.
Thanks for posting.
Good answer BTY....Here is what Bill W. had to say on the subject.
I can see why you are disturbed to hear some A.A. speakers say, "A.A. is a selfish program." The word "selfish" ordinarily implies that one is acquisitive, demanding, and thoughtless of the welfare of others. Of course, the A.A. way of life does not at all imply such undesirable traits.
What do these speakers mean? Well, any theologian will tell you that the salvation of his own soul is the highest vocation that a man can have. Without salvation -- however we may define this -- he will have little or nothing. For us if A.A., there is even more urgency.
If we cannot or will not achieve sobriety, then we become truly lost, right in the here and now. We are of no value to anyone, including ourselves, until we find salvation from alcohol. Therefore, our own recovery and spiritual growth have to come first-- a right and necessary kind of self-concern.
As Bill Sees It pg 81
How do I reconcile those thoughts? I also agree that in the saving of ourselves, which we don't supply the power for, we just supply the willingness, we are of service to others. Our HP uses us, prompts us, to be of service. For me, I am like a fork in the silverware drawer God uses. I am willing to do my part to keep me clean, and God puts me on the table of service for use. Just like Bill says, I must be sober to be of use. The Third Step Prayer comes to mind.
Third Step Prayer
God, I offer myself to Thee to build with me and to do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of life. May I do Thy will always!
I get your feelings. Confrontation can be uncomfortable. People asking for money, or some obvious drunk ones or off ones hitting on women happens too. We try and be there for and with our women friends and members. It also is a reminder of what awaits. Another trip out drinking, and I may be the guy that is a bit off, with some brain damage.
I hope you find a compatible place to be of service and enjoy personal growth.
I believe these four paradoxes were acually on the jacket of the second edition of the big book...On the binder.
The Four Paradoxes of the Alcoholics Anonymous Program
1.We SURRENDER TO WIN. On the face of it, surrendering certainly does not seem like winning. But it is in A.A. Only after we have come to the end of our rope, hit a stone wall in some aspect of our lives beyond which we can go no further; only when we hit "bottom" in despair and surrender, can we accomplish sobriety which we could never accomplish before. We must, and we do, surrender in order to win.
2.We GIVE AWAY TO KEEP IT. That seems absurd and untrue. How can you keep anything if you give it away? But in order to keep whatever it is we get in A.A., we must go about giving it away to others, for no fees or rewards of any kind. When we cannot afford to give away what we have received so freely in A.A., we had better get ready for our next "drunk." It will happen every time. We've got to continue to give it away in order to keep it.
3.We SUFFER TO GET WELL. There is no way to escape the terrible suffering of remorse and regret and shame and embarrassment, which starts us on the road to getting well from our affliction. There is no new way to shake out a hangover. It's painful. And for us, necessarily so. I told this to a friend of mine as he sat weaving to and fro on the side of the bed, in terrible shape, about to die for some paraldehyde. I said, "Lost John"-that's his nickname-"Lost John, you know you're going to have to do a certain amount of shaking sooner or later." "Well," he said, "for God's sake let's make it later!" We suffer to get well.
4.We DIE TO LIVE. That is a beautiful paradox straight out of the Biblical idea of being "born again" or "in losing one's life to find it." When we work at our Twelve Steps, the old life of guzzling and fuzzy thinking, and all that goes with it, gradually dies, and we acquire a different and a better way of life. As our shortcomings are removed, one life of us dies, and another life of us lives. We in A.A. die to live.
From "THE PROFESSOR AND THE PARADOX"
page 341 of the Second Edition of the book, Alcoholics Anonymous
What a great thread....love the BB quotes and the perspectives as well. I love Sober's quote...."For me, I am like a fork in the silverware drawer God uses. I am willing to do my part to keep me clean, and God puts me on the table of service for use."
And pink chip...maybe some Visine would help with that wink? Sure clears up mine....well, sometimes....:(
((((everybody)))))
-- Edited by betterthanyesterday52 on Thursday 12th of December 2013 11:04:53 AM
Wow, ... What an exceptionally good thread ... thanks to all who've shared ... Really good stuff there Stepdude ... ... ...
Pappy
I like that!
i was told we re like sponges. We soak up love and life, then squeeze it out in service. Only when used will there be room for more.
if we refuse to be used, we are still like a sponge. We sit, we soak, and we sour!
The first step in initiating our driveway cleaning process in Perth is to perform an initial assessment. During this evaluation, we determine the best methods and suitable cleaning driveway agents customized for your driveway. We conduct a detailed analysis that takes into account factors such as surface composition, age, concrete hardness, and other pertinent aspects. This extensive examination enables you to choose the most effective cleaning method. Typically, this assessment can be done online using tools like Google Earth, utilizing all accessible information.
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