Hi, everyone.

I would ask you to read the review written by Jason Gold with an open mind.  This review is of the Big Book, as it appears on Amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/1893007162/ref=cm_rev_prev/102-3364057-4522565?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155&s=books&customer-reviews.start=1

While Mr. Gold's review has several statements I disagree with, I do wish to point out I concur in that there are many aspects of AA that concern me in the realm of those of us who suffer from the disease conceding fragility and powerlessness.  As a cantankerous curmudgeon I rarely concede anything--yet, I will admit it takes more than me, myself, and I to obtain peace of mind and push the shot glass away.  And yet, I maintain the golden impetus for sobriety is not so much the spiritual aspect of AA as it is the fellowship of one alcoholic helping another:  a "been there, done that" commonality that transcends spirituality.  Let's face it:  Our membership runs the gambit, from devoutly religious to acutely atheistic; with such diversity spirituality inherently takes on the mantel of relativism, yet the Big Book often speaks from a pluralistic approach.

I find the review to be very stimulating and enlightening, yet my affinity for the fellowship of AA and its fundamental importance to sobriety is not diminished in the least.  I am more prepared to discuss at length, but first wish to throw this link out for discussion and comment by all of you, whom I greatly admire.  Danke.

M

Hi Mikel,

Read the review, kind of giggled my way through at times, and thought alot about the 12th step. The result of working the steps, to me, has resulted in a spiritual awakening. Maybe others had an understanding of a HP before they came in, I didn't. I wanted the peace and serenity that I saw others have, yet didn't know how to find it. The whole thing is...the 12 step is about sharing ES&H with other alcoholics. So how can Jason Gold not have worked a step if he is advocating working with others??? And it sounds as if he is practicing the principles in all his affairs...so, maybe he doesn't realize it but I think he has worked a step or two here and there.

The Big Book is, in my opinion, one of the tools I used when first starting out. I had to remind myself that it was written in 1939 by older men in a Judeo-Christian America. I didn't understand alot of what was written about God, but I was willing to believe that there just might be one out there.  Wasn't sure, but I kept an open mind about it. I have found through the years that when we try to discuss God and spirituality with people that haven't found thier own belief and concept yet, it is like talking to air. They want to understand and yet still have a hard time. I believe now that it must come to each individual in thier own way and time. When they do find whatever it is they are looking for, the whole concept becomes clear and they don't have questions anymore, they just know what is in thier hearts.

And this is only my opinions and thoughts, as I have grown to learn in this program. I still question many things at time, but the program of AA has worked for me...so I'll keep coming back.

Love, cheri

It seems to me that the one area of AA that Mr. Gold is having trouble with, is the notion that belief in, and complete submission to, a Judaeo-Christian God is central to recovery. 

His review starts out creating the impression that he thinks AA is usless and ineffective.  He later even goes so far as to produce statistics(regrettably without reference to his source) that only 5% in the program remain sober for a year, which is "no better than the rate of spontaneous recovery in the general popluation".  Yet I have read research that states that professional treatment produces a far better recovery rate when followed up with attendance in AA.

I must agree that a significant reason for the success of AA, is that "the the Book is correct that there is a behavior (besides not drinking) which could be termed "spiritual" which may help the alcoholic stay sober -- the book has a whole chapter on it -- HELP ANOTHER DRUNK -- SHARE YOUR EXPERIENCE, STRENGTH AND HOPE. An alcoholic can relate to another alcoholic in a way no one else can. No one but an alcoholic understands what it is like to not be able to stop -- to desparately want to not get drunk, while at the same time desparately needing to get drunk. No one but another drunk understands the insanity. Therein lies one of the great tools of the AA fellowship. One drunk helping another. In this manner, both the helper and the person being helped reinforce the idea that taking a single drink will cause suffering and humiliation."

Ultimately, I have seen AA help atheists who have yet remained atheist, agnostics who have remained agnostic, and those who had religious beliefs or "came to believe", while not attempting to force the 12 steps down anyone's throat.  If there are groups out there who do adhere fanatically, dogmatically to that, I too am glad that I did not encounter one of them first.  AA exists in many other countries, and it, of necessity, would have to move beyond " cultish pseudo-Christian religiosity" to be accepted and applied in predominantly Hindu, Budhist or Taoist cultures.  

Regardless of what it may have been like 40, 50 or 60 years ago, I was told in recent AA meetings that I didn't have to join in the "Lords Prayer" at the end if I did not want to, and that whatever I deem to be my higher power, even if it be no more than my support group, is quite acceptable. 

I was never told that I had to accept humiliation, degradation, or depreciation.  In fact, I was encouraged to have a sense of self worth.  As with many alcoholics, my low self esteem was a major factor in my desire to hide inside a bottle.

In Mr Gold's words, "Recovery should be based on rational approaches to rebuilding self esteem, taking action to help the alcoholic change his/her expectations of what drinking will do to and for him/her, personal responsibility, and ongoing counseling and support groups."  Yet in the immediately preceeding sentence he states that "recovery need not be based on"...."ongoing dependence on the group for identity and emotional support". 

He concedes that AA may help if you have the "emotional fortitude to put up with the peer group pressure to conform (which most do not have)".  And, yet, "peer group pressure to conform" was a common factor many times in why I (and, I suspect many others) drank.

It's great to hear that he has found an alternative that helped him, when he was one of those for whom AA didn't work.  I sure won't knock it.  I also won't knock AA for working for those who do find it helpful.  As for it being a cult....an effort to modify our thinking???....well, DUH?!?  A program which does not promote slave-ish support of a central figure, but rather each individuals self improvement, and contribution to society as a whole, whether, or not, it be through worship of a diety or a doorknob, can't be as bad as a society dedicated to self gratification.

Finally, AA was available before the concept of ongoing counseling and support groups had gained much ground anywhere.  It still is often the only available (and/or affordable) option in many areas of the world, including the US and Canadian midwest ("America's Outback").  If Mr. Gold would be so kind as to donate, say $100 million, to get those alternative ongoing counseling and support group programs going out here, I'll be glad to give them a look-see.

Polytheism, monotheism, agnosticism, atheism, alcoholism.....hmmmmmmmm....whatever a man believes, him isn't so different, is'm?

 

Well, I not only read Mr. Gold's review but many of the others. I tend to take what I like and leave the rest,learned that in the AA rooms.

I like to keep it simple, if it works, work it, if it doesn't then maybe something else will. Where else can you go ,sit around a table, share your experience, strength and hope with a group of complete strangers from all walks of life, different races, genders, ages, belief systems and walk out feeling as though each one of them just told part of your alcoholic life story. Common threads that weave a story of recovery.

(((Hugs)))

GammyRose

Cheri, sick, and Gammy, thank you for such GREAT responses! 

You basically have affirmed my own take on Mr. Gold's review of the Big Book, namely, that each individual has his or her own concept of the Program. . .and his or her own concept of a Higher Power.  Mr. Gold, obviously, has some issues with what he perceives as the religious "cultish" nature of AA; speaking from personal experience, while I have attended meetings of a decidedly ecumenical nature, I have never gone to a meeting and had "God" force-fed down my throat.   As a matter of fact, I attended a meeting last night whereby our monitor confessed he was in AA some ten long years before he was comfortable with the concept of a "Higher Power."

The one aspect of the book review that did strike a chord with me was the "hat in hand" humility and humble pie mea culpa that often permeates newcomers' attitudes when they arrive in the program.  As I've said previous, I am too cantankerous to concede much of anything. . .particularly that I am somehow less of a person due to my illness.  When I go to a meeting and the comment is made "it's one drunk helping another drunk" I bristle just a tad.  We may be drunks, but we are much more than just drunks.  Sick aptly makes the point that many of us had low self-esteem to begin with; otherwise we wouldn't be crawling into a bottle, and that is true, but we also don't have to belittle ourselves or beat ourselves up.  I have spoken with several AA veterans who remarked, following their Step Four personal inventory, they discovered that, when boiled down to the lowest common denominator, they simply didn't happen to be very nice people.  I reject that, and although my ongoing personal inventory is turning up less than favorable aspects of my colorful character, I will forever reject that.

It is the Fellowship of AA that so appeals to me.  As cheri advises, where else can total strangers from all walks of life gather and share an instant bond of commonality?  I can talk for hours to people whose names I don't even know, because every single one of us has shared the same experiences, worries, and fears.  I would also make this caveat re: Mr. Gold perhaps inadvertently working a few of the AA steps himself:  If in fact Jason Gold has been sober six years, then indeed "something" has worked for him, and it is inherent in the human condition to share success with others who suffer the same plight.  I believe Mr. Gold would help other alcoholics whether there was an official Step Twelve or not, but that's just my two cents.

Again, what a great discussion!  Thank you!

M

Show me a cult where absolutely nothing is asked of you...you don't have to give any money, you can come and go as often or as little as you please, it's recommended that you take and use what works for you and discard the anything you aren't comfortable with or don't like. All that's "suggested" is 12 steps that worked for other people who desperately wanted to stop drinking...and it's only suggested. I have zero respect for religious wackos and zealots but I have even less respect for those who let their own failure cause them to lash out at others because of their pathetic feelings of inferiority. It takes great courage to live an honest life but the rewards are limitless. These cowards will never know peace and serenity.