it would be a good thing to keep going to Alanon meetings and give him his space so you can take care of you. Sorry we cannot give you a list of what will happen or of what might happen.  there are "Co dependent" 12 step meetings, too.  each recovery is personal and something one has to want with all your heart. he may recover and then again, he may not. don't let his addiction rule your life. you need to be healthy and happy, you are in charge of you and he is in charge of him. Alanon can give you new ways of looking at things and remind you that your health is important and your emotional being needs your attention. let go..... so you can be you. hopefully he will get well and be honest with you.
big hugs from an alcoholic who is seeking recovery. i am happy, the happiest i have ever been. it is not easy, even though this is a simple program. i want my new sober life more than anything else in this world, so it is working for me. take care, jj/sheila

WOW KeepingFaith, ... You just said a mouthful and in an intelligent way, I might add ... If you're not and alcoholic/addict, then I must say that you really seem to have a good grasp of what the disease is all about ... Actually I find it quite rare to find a non-alcoholic with such a degree of understanding ... But alas, if your not an alcoholic, you can never fully understand us, mainly because we ourselves never come to fully understand us either ...

From the description of your actions, I feel you're on the right track ... continuing to see him before he gets help will only enable him to manipulate you to his desires ... and this won't help him ... 1st he has to admit to himself that he has a problem and cannot solve it by himself, else no progress will be made ... I think your best bet is to remain supportive and patient ... there's no guarantee he will take to our program of recovery, even if he were to stay sober for a few months, there's still no way you, or anyone else can be sure he won't pick a drink and/or use again ...

So how much more of your life, in terms of 'time', are you willing to spend on this guy? ... If he were to seek help and go to meetings regularly, then he'll need at least a year of no sexual relationships before he can begin to implement the principles of the program into his life ... (the emotional 'roller coaster' of any normal relationship is more than an alcoholic/addict can handle during the first year of recovery .... many have ignored this and many have failed)

You are 100% correct that we become a different person when we drink ... also that it's the first drink that gets us, cause the first drink sets off an incredible craving that none of us can resist ... we absolutely, positively, must have another drink and soon we will do whatever is necessary to satisfy that craving ... even to the expense of losing our friends, family, and any self-respect we may have had ...

From your post above, I have no criticisms of your actions at all, in fact I applaud your caring attitude and love for this man ... (It would be great if he stumbled across your post and read it himself) ... But just be advised, he will never be totally cured ... he must learn to stay sober, one day at a time ... If your relationship works out for now, great, but he needs at least a year's space to work things out ... and there'll never be any guarantees that he won't get drunk again, you must understand that right now before going any further with him ...


God Bless You both,
Pappy

KeepingFaith wrote:

---

give me some insight as to what he is going through

---

Getting high/drunk is the most important thing in his life. Any 'relationships' he has counts as a distant 2nd place.

You're best bet is to stop trying to understand him and start trying to understand why you want to be involved with an addict/alcoholic. Al-Anon can help.

After you figure out your own motivations would be a good time to re-examine how you really feel about having a relationship with him.

Rich (rrib) is right, ... Unless and until he goes to rehab or stops drinking and goes to AA, your bf (Abf) is going to make getting high/drunk his top priority in life ... you won't even come close to being number one prioity ... What you need to consider is how much TIME are you willing to wait to see if this guy can straighten out ... Women view age and 'aging' quite differently than men, usually ... Do you want to chance giving a couple years of your life on the outside chance this guy will come around? ...

I agree with 'rrib', time to re-examine how you really feel about this relationship ...


Good luck and God Bless,
Pappy

rrib wrote:

---

You're best bet is to stop trying to understand him and start trying to understand why you want to be involved with an addict/alcoholic. Al-Anon can help.

After you figure out your own motivations would be a good time to re-examine how you really feel about having a relationship with him.

---

Pythonpappy wrote:

---

So how much more of your life, in terms of 'time', are you willing to spend on this guy? ... If he were to seek help and go to meetings regularly, then he'll need at least a year of no sexual relationships before he can begin to implement the principles of the program into his life ... (the emotional 'roller coaster' of any normal relationship is more than an alcoholic/addict can handle during the first year of recovery .... many have ignored this and many have failed)

in fact I applaud your caring attitude and love for this man ... (It would be great if he stumbled across your post and read it himself) ... But just be advised, he will never be totally cured ... he must learn to stay sober, one day at a time ... If your relationship works out for now, great, but he needs at least a year's space to work things out ... and there'll never be any guarantees that he won't get drunk again, you must understand that right now before going any further

Hey KeepingFaith, ... You are indeed an incredible woman ... The love you're expressing is very rare in this day and age ... if you're willing to stick with this guy through all this, and never leave him, then you've just described what Holy Matrimony is all about ... 'Til death do us part' and 'in sickness and in health' ... makes me wonder why your not already married, but that's really none of my business ...

And what really amazes me is that you've seen the change alcohol and drugs can make in a person and still be willing to be around that ... you did state, I believe, that he's not the person you fell in love with when he drinks and that you're hoping he gets well so that you can have the man back that you fell in love with in the beginning ... I pray for just that ...

AA is a lifetime commitment for those of us never wishing for alcohol to take back control of our lives ... In fact, I must warn you that like the man who wrote our Big Book, some of us become so involved helping others and going to meetings, that our family life can suffer ... from us spending more time doing AA work than spending time at home ... But also know that most families would rather see less of us sober than more of us while drunk ...

Keep going to Al-Anon to learn more of just how you can be there for him ... you may not like some of the things they want you to do ... in fact I think they even follow the twelve steps that we do to improve their conscious contact with God to make themselves better persons in general ... one thing for sure, it can't hurt ... And one last thing ... I truly admire your commitment ... you come across as a woman of most any man's dream ... to have someone willing to endure great hardships and emotional turmoil as a cost of loving him ... if I weren't married(38years)(to the same woman), I'd be wanting to meet you myself ... What I'm trying to say is that you've convinced me of your sincerity ... May God grant you the strength to endure ...


God Bless and hang in there,
Pappy

jj wrote:

---

it would be a good thing to keep going to Alanon meetings and give him his space so you can take care of you. Sorry we cannot give you a list of what will happen or of what might happen.  there are "Co dependent" 12 step meetings, too.  each recovery is personal and something one has to want with all your heart. he may recover and then again, he may not. don't let his addiction rule your life. you need to be healthy and happy, you are in charge of you and he is in charge of him. Alanon can give you new ways of looking at things and remind you that your health is important and your emotional being needs your attention. let go..... so you can be you. hopefully he will get well and be honest with you.
big hugs from an alcoholic who is seeking recovery. i am happy, the happiest i have ever been. it is not easy, even though this is a simple program. i want my new sober life more than anything else in this world, so it is working for me. take care, jj/sheila

-- Edited by jj on Saturday 12th of November 2011 11:12:14 AM

---

 Amen "JJ". Words to live by, for sure. I wish you the best, both of you.

I think this is what we call denial. From chapter 3 More about Alcoholism (AA Big Book) "despite all we can say, many who are real alcoholics are not going to believe they are in that class. By every form of self deception and experimentation, they will try to prove themselves exceptions to the rule, therefore non alcoholic." he is saying you don't really mean that, I'm not that bad (yet)he is minimising the harm he causes, and trying to arrange things so he can continue on his path. This is how the disease works. The stand you have taken is helping to break down that denial, it is a direct consequence of his behaviour. As others take a similar stand, like friends and employers, the denial is broken down further and eventually a point is reached where he must take notice. That point doesn't always arrive early - From our book "The idea that some how, some day he will control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker. The persistance of this illusion is astonishing. Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or death." Alcohol is a powerful foe and a drinking alcoholic can be extremely cunning and manipulative to get his own way.
I was exactly like this and many of us on this site had to lose almost everything hit (rock bottom) before we were willing to admit our problem. The people that stood up to us, that refused to tolerate out behaviour, they were the ones that helped us most in the long run. Those that covered up, lied for us etc (even with the best intentions) just kept us sick.

God bless,
Mike H.

Fyne Spirit wrote:

---

he is saying you don't really mean that, I'm not that bad (yet)he is minimising the harm he causes, and trying to arrange things so he can continue on his path. This is how the disease works. The stand you have taken is helping to break down that denial, it is a direct consequence of his behaviour. As others take a similar stand, like friends and employers, the denial is broken down further and eventually a point is reached where he must take notice.

-- Edited by Fyne Spirit on Monday 14th of November 2011 05:15:59 AM

---

 (((((Mike)))))

Thanks so much! In the beginning when I did question things, he was awesome with excuses and cover stories. My fault was believing them. I'm glad that I finally tore off my blinders.

The part that is hard for me to see is that he has himself submerged just where he wants to be - in a job that "protects" him and surrounded by friends & family that just say "Oh that's just him. He wouldnt be working if he were that bad."

It breaks my heart and I'm working on accepting that his problem is not my problem, but in loving him - and knowing the true him - I know that deep down he does not want to be his father. He has freaked out at times where he thought he has hurt me (emotionally speaking) and even went as far as to say "I cant handle thinking I hurt you." Now I understand that is a reality smack for him that he cant face.

I'm strong enough to stand my ground and know that he may never come around. I'm realistic enough to also accept that I'm not the magic kitty (if you will - lol) and not powerful enough to make him wake up. However, I know that I have some pull as he cannot face me. He will avoid a face to face with me at all costs. I'd like to think it's because he is avoiding reality, but I'm sure it's more like he doesnt even realize its been so long since we have seen each other.

I'm torn at times... I so badly want to have an honest conversation with him, and be gentle, not berate him but love him, and I guess I just have to tough it out and have faith that if he begins to wake up, then hopefully he will come talk to me when he is ready to be real... Am I being unrealistic hoping that?

Hey KeepingFaith, ... Fyne Spirit has made an excellent point ... and even better is that you seem to be digesting this rather well ... I too, was a 'working' alcoholic for a long time until my body just couldn't keep up with the demand ... the loss of a job was just one more item that broke down my denial, as Fyne Spirit referred to ... but I still had a long way to go before amitting I needed help ... my excuses got more creative and my wife was a good enabler ...

In the end, she went to a lawyer and started divorce papers that would end 35 years marriage(at that time) because, as she put it, she couldn't stand to sit back and watch me killing myself slowly and painfully with the alcohol ... she said she loved me too much to see it happen before her very own eyes ... She even said she'd leave me the house and all the stuff I had, that she just wanted out, period ...

As an alcoholic might think, my 1st thought was, great, I'll have the house to myself and I can drink without all the arguments that usually occured daily ... But when I analyzed a little further, I was out of work and unemployable and I would certainly lose everything on short order ... Only then did I decide I needed help once and for all ... (my physical health was so poor at the time, I could hardly walk to the 'mailbox' and back, ... only a hundred feet away!)

I am telling you all of this so as to prepare you for what might be in store for you ... and to help you handle the situations that may arise ... You need to be strong and be firm in your convictions and not back down a bit ... He needs to understand what he's losing by cutting you off from his world ... and if his love for you is of any consequence, then he'll be willing to do anything to keep you in his life, namely get help for his disease ...


Again, Love you and may God Bless You,
Pappy

Hey Keeping Faith, ... You need to be prepared! ...

We haven't talked about you very much ... This whole situation with your BF may not turn out as you wish it to ... And it is my sincere desire that you become strong in spiritual matters affecting you personally ... It would serve you well to get VERY involved with Al-Anon so as to build a spiritual foundation that will help you through uncertain times, whether it be the situation with your BF or any other life challenging situation ...

You need not bare the weight of these difficult times alone ... when any of us have established a close 'conscious contact' with God, we are more at peace with things that happen that aren't what we want or expect to happen ... We have become able to turn these unhappy events over to our spiritual guide and not allow these things to control our thoughts, we've learned to let go and live just for today ... Now that I know you a little better, this is what I wish for you ... (to not allow what you don't expect, to control or rule your line of thinking ...)(because if you do, you'll only succeed in making yourself sick)

Even 'non-alcoholics' need spiritual guidance ... (Ha! ... some of them even more than we do ... LOL)

It's a learning process ... we have a saying "Spiritual progress, not perfection", is what we seek ...


God Bless You,
Pappy

Hey KF, ... Thanks for your reply ... I feel better knowing your outlook on this 'life changing' situation ... You sound like a pretty tough cookie to me ... Hope so, cause what your about to go through with your son over the next few years, you'll need all the patience and wisdom you can muster ...Ha! :) ... If your BF doesn't drive you nuts, your son may very well tip the scales ... (I have two sons ... 1 is 31 tomorrow and the other is 37) .... The teenage years are the hardest to deal with ... and you may have thought adolescents and puberty were tough, baby you ain't seen nothin' yet ...
One day they love you and the very next day they hate you and you haven't a clue as to what happened ... trust me you WILL go thru this ...


Hang in there Babe, love Ya and God Bless,
Pappy

Excellent Mike, ... KF, what Mike just said makes all the sense in the world ... (wish I'd have put it that way) ... great stuff Mike, thanks for helping me to see a more 'in depth' way to approach the situation ... I'll store that away for another opportunity to help others...

Love Ya'll and God Bless,
Pappy

Hey Pappy! Happy belated Bday to your 31 year old son! I'm the youngest of 5 and my siblings are when I turn 40 as they are all 8-14 years older than I am. hehe ;)  Gotta love it while you can, right?

Anyway, I appreciate the thoughts and preparations! I'm happy to learn and I really  look forward to soaking in as much as I can.

Also, it has been tremendously helpful keeping me in positive, forward thinking instead of dwelling in sadness and anger.

Will be seeking a couple meetings tomorrow and excited for the opportunity to earn more growth... it sure does feel good :)

Oh Fyne Mike :) *big hugs*

Thank you soooooo much for listening (reading lol) and hearing me :)  It made me feel, accomplished, in a sense... like I am growing and getting to a new step. And I hope I can express to you just how greatful I am to be embraced by you and Pappy (and the others who have offered their support) because it makes me feel so warm and human.

I am so very eager to prepare! I think I have lost a few WOW moments with him while I had my blinders on :(  But if he does decide to ask for help, I would hate to miss the opportunity to really offer him positive support and direction. I am going to an open AA meeting tomorrow (as it is my day off) and will purchase the book. I'm so excited to learn more and I know it will help me understand more.

Today was a bad day for me, or maybe I should clarify and say "sad" day... So I cried and let it out, then re-read the open letter from an alcoholic and let that hold my heart so I could reground myself and redirect my thinking. Some days are better than others and today I just missed him and had to force myself to do other things so I didn't dwell in the past. I finally got some sleep this afternoon. Went to my kids teacher conference which my ex bailed out on going to. And tonight has been much better.

When I read your last post, it filled me with a major "Yes!" moment - lol! And I am really truly excited to learn.  I am a little anxious though. I was thinking, and let me know what you think, if after I learn this next part (preparedness) if I write a letter from my heart and post it up here (in a different thread with tags) just in case he were to peek in as a guest? I find that I am at times caught in does he feel I abandoned him or is he so numb and wasted that he doesnt even realize I've gone? He tends to assume that I've written him off because I'm letting him have space he asked for. That's what was different in my setting definitive boundaries. They were clear enough for him to understand, but I'm not sure if he'll accept it or just dismiss it to avoid feeling hurt.

I dunno...maybe I'm jumping the gun and just should refocus on learning how to be prepared first, get a sponser from AA and rethink that thought then. lol Did I just answer my own question? Damn you're good! haha :) Yes, I should slow down and go one step at a time. Learn it. Understand it. Believe it. Then I can apply it. Once I am equipped enough to apply it, then I can think of how to expand it.

I'm trying to really learn how to slow down and remember to live in today. I've had some life experiences that have taught me all too well that tomorrow may not come. One of them was my kid and I getting hit by a drunk driver in my car when we were sitting parked in front of our house. There's other things-medically related- which all turned out to be fine (kind of the I so dont fit in the "norm" box that it worked out in my favor lol), but I believe these things trigger me to jump the gun, so to speak, when I feel anxious. I've been learning here, to take it one day at a time and slow down to actually enjoy living in the moment.

Anyway, random tangent there... but I really want to thank you from the bottom of my heart, just how much I admire your service here and how fortunate I feel that you've taken me under your wing :)

*big big hugs*

~Nicole

Nicole, ...

I also am following your efforts and am also grateful that you've accomplished a lot already ... Mike H.'s suggestions make a lot of sense to me and I am learning a lot from him too ...

I know that the future meetings that you attend will comfort those who may be giving you the 'cold shoulder' now ... I generally have observed that most elder members are very cautious when it comes to 'non-alcohlics' coming to meetings to join a group of people who wish to remain anonymous ... and who also wish that what they say there, remains there and is not for spreading outside the rooms ... They just aren't sure of your real motives at first ... but the more they see you and hear of your concerns for your BF, then the more they will be willing to assist you ... as you know, you'll be welcome at 'open meetings' and discouraged from attending 'closed' meetings (alcoholics only)...

We place great value in our 12th Tradition: Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our Traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities. ... (note: Our Traditions are listed in the back of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous)

And just keep in mind that a lot of members are skiddish of people coming to our meetings that aren't personally suffering from alcoholism ... But like Mike said, you should be able to find someone who will mentor you if you approach them in a patience, student-like way ...


Love you and good luck ...
God Bless,
Pappy

Thanks Mike & Pappy! *hugs hugs hugs*!!!

I am so deeply grateful for your support and encouragement :)

I have realized that I need to work on my patience and powerlessness. I find myself beginning to "stop" myself from constant worrying and angst, or prevent myself from trying to find a way to reach him.

In attending the meeting, I realized that there is much to learn and it will do me a world of good. And reading this golden book is truly enlightening and I feel as if I am about to embark on a wonderful spiritual journey myself.

When I first learned he was having an addiction to Ambien (which was in July) I was still ignorant as to what alcoholism is. On break one night at work, I was sitting reading "How to Get Them Sober" and a guy I work with came over and asked what I was reading. I showed him and he said "How long has he been in AA?" I said "He's not." Then he asked if I was in Al-Anon and I wasn't yet. Then he said "You need to go to Al-Anon and he needs to get in to AA." I explained what had happened and where we were. He told me his story and how he lost everything before he found his way to AA. He encouraged me to take care of myself and remember that I cant fix him. About once a week/week and a half, he'd check in on me and gently ask how I was doing and point out that I looked "good" on the nights that I was feeling better. In our most recent chat (during this week) he said "I'm more than happy to meet with and talk to your boy if he decides he wants help." I thanked him and feel that he may be a good fit for my guy (personality wise). I thought "Wow! Fate is intervening. How ironic? Mike has just helped me to continue my journey and here it is." Then I thought "That's not irony. It's because I believed in my HP and gave control over to the universe. And here I am, right where I should be."

If I may step back a moment, in July (the last time I saw my man) f2f, we had an "oops" moment which resulted in a pregnancy. When I set my boundaries, I let him know that. He first said "what does that mean?" to which I did not respond. A couple weeks later said "guess you're not going to elaborate on that?" And now said "Does that mean you are? Were? Why does it have to be so cryptic? Just tell me what is going on??" *Note: all this is by texting me - no phone call  - no face to face.

My reply to him was this: "I have tried. Where have you been the last 4 months? You broke every date we had. Never called back. Just abandoned me & betrayed me.

I'd love to talk to you, but only when you are sober. Because we should have an honest conversation.

*i called him but he did not answer*

I'm not being cryptic. I've told you over and over that we needed to talk. I tried and tried. Even now, where are you??? Not present.

I can't open up to you when you won't try.

The point is, this deserves no less than a face to face conversation. You really think a text is appropriate? It isn't at all :(

Who is this??? I'd expect this kind of behavior from (inserted my ex-husbands name who he dispises because of how badly he treated me)... NOT YOU

Lastly, you are the one who has been silent. You say one thing but dont act on it. Yx0=0. Nothing changes if nothing changes. & I believed you when you said you loved me."

The next night which was the 24th, I wrote him again. I felt bad and was upset with myself for responding in the first place. So I tried to be more gentle and explain my reason for my boundaries, which I'm not sure he even cares about.

I wrote: "I genuinely don't understand why you wont let us talk. Dont you remember anything about me???

Hasn't it occurred to you how difficult all this has been on me???

In May, when we had our awesome treadmill night you said you "had enough" and stated: "I have this mountain of stress to get through and it's going to be hard as hell, but I have to do it so that I can get to you so that we CAN be together. You are the goal I'm working for."

Then i further timelined. I figured if he doesn't remember the past 4 months, then he has no idea why I'm so hurt and shut. I went on to say:

"July was the last time you saw me. The night you told me about the Ambien.

So as I was trying to understand Ambien addiction, I realized that Ambien aren't tiny round white pills. Those are Oxi :(

So I went to seek information (began seeing an addictions counselor) to get my head straight and truly understand what you were going through.

And in learning, I began to understand the alcoholism.

At the same time, I, all of a sudden, couldn't smoke. Made me sick. I could smell like and dog. I knew. Then I was late.

That is why I kept trying to get you to meet me because I wanted to have a heart to heart.

But you kept blowing me off :(

And so I continued to try and learn so I could manage me and support you (not make it worse as I had been) and went on to al-anon and AA.

The hardest part of all this is that you wont talk to me. You refuse to let yourself open up and it makes me feel like I never mattered. :(

All I desperately wanted to hear was that you are trying to get yourself well.

And that is still all I want to hear.

But until you take care of yourself, what we had cannot exist.

The painkillers kill us because it has made you different. Angry, cold, uncaring, isolated, bi-polar, and cruel.

Those behaviors aren't the true you.

I had to tell you so I could move forward. I was stuck.

I am frustrated that you aren't able to communicate with me. That is what brought us so close. The intimacy we had...

and I'll never know if it was true unless you show me that you meant is when you said that I was your love"

**************

Sorry that was so long, but I wanted to share it in detail so you guys can help me. Even if I was totally wrong and/or way out of line, please critique!

He hasn't responded. I am not expecting him to. I didn't want to answer his question directly, because that would remove his consequence. The reality I want him to understand (which I left in a voice message to him when I set my boundaries) is that it doesn't matter if I am or if I lost the baby. The point is that we made a baby and he missed finding out about it because he was caring about whatever instead of me/us. And it doesn't matter because as long as he is drinking and drugging, and more importantly not getting any help, then what good could he do me? None.

So I'm sure it is making him way uncomfortable and/or maybe angry. His silence is to "punish" me as in to make me feel scared as if I lost him. But I've grown past that ploy now that my blinders to his addictions are off.

I'm sincerely not trying to be cruel to him. I just want him to feel again. Even if it's a crisis I provoked. And i decided to plop it in his lap, because if I worry about sending him over the edge, then I'm only preventing him from another crisis and thus enablling his irresponsibility, right?

Anyway, that is also why it was a difficult week for me. The only part of my communication with him that astounds me is that he NEVER denies it when I talk about his alcoholism or med addictions. Not that he owns it either, but I'm somewhat hopeful that he hasn't said "you don't know what you're talking about or i dont have a problem". I just wish he would talk to me.

So to tangent a little more. Just to give you guys some further insight as to me, I went through a major tragedy when I was a child. I repressed the experience and it came flooding back to me when my son was entering Kindergarten. Anyway, in learning what I am from AA, the book, and here, I realized how fortunate I was. It's profound for me to look back in reflection of my life and the paths I took. When I was 6, I was molested by a janitor in my elementary school. I went to Catholic school for elementary. He had told me that because he worked in God's school, that God would be very angry with me if I didn't do as I was told and that God would surely punish me if I told our secret. There were other things that he said to ensure my fears. And I projected myself, somewhere else (what I can as an adult describe as an astral projection) to get myself mentally/emotionally away even though I couldn't physically run.  As I grew into adolescence, and began to develop hormonally, I felt plagued by guilt. Feeling tainted and dirty. That school was teaching me to be abstinant and that being God's way, but God allowed this man the right to harm me. The man eventually got arrested for molesting children in his neighborhood and the school covered it up by stating that he "never molested any children here" which I knew to be a lie. Those were the words spoken from our Priests and Nuns. Ironically, our Monseignor was also sent out of school and I can attest that he aiding (watching but not participating) in the molestation of these kids as well.

Anyway, it was a definite struggle for me to learn as I grew and develop what my understanding of God/HP was. I didnt reject the idea of "God" but developed my own understanding of what I perceive to be my HP. I went to a new school for 7th grade which was a quaker school and found inspired by Meeting there. I began to grow spiritually. I'd take out books in the library on astrology, numerology, astral dreaming, meditation and devled into poetic interpretration. I learned to read tarot cards in 8th grade and continued on my spiritual path. I began my little rituals and in all of that really developed my sense of inner being.

I share this with you now because at 36, I can look back and realize just how fortunate I was to be open enough to be lead by my spirit guides in my innocence. I was constantly soul searching and actively working to be honest with myself. And the things I've experienced between then and now, have been difficult and even quite depressing. But I've struggled through it all and avoided turning that "escape call" into addictions that would have been harder to let go of.

I'm quitting smoking at the moment. I used to be a hippie chick before I had my son. And I was never a big fan of drinking because I never liked how it made me or my friends/family act/feel. 

And one last little twist. I happen to be allergic to Lettuce. It's a very rare allergy, however I am. I can smell it when it is cut or cooked and I get instantly ill. Interestingly, the plant name for lettuce is L. Sativa. And I'm so curious after reading the Doctor's Opinion and looking at alcohol as an allergy, if there is a correlation between L. Sativa and Cannibis Sativa??? And what is it that chemically tweaks our bodies to the degree of dependency. I know that my guy, deep down, is terrified by the thought of giving up drinking. He began when he was 12. His father was an alcoholic and died from an enlarged heart as a result of his alcoholism. I know that he is so insane at the moment that he can't even begin to process just how out of control his life is in reality. And his inability to and lack of desire to talk to me is paramount as to how bad a state he is in.

But in reading this material, I was impressed with something that Mike, you had mentioned in your post about meds. It is in the Doctor's Opinion (which I just read last night) pg xxix "Faced with this problem, if a doctor is honest with himself, he must sometimes feel his own inadequacy. Although he gives all that is in him, it is often not enough. One feels that something more than human power is needed to produce the essential psychic change. Though the aggegate of recoveries resulting from psychiatric effort is considerable, we physicians must admit we have made little impression upon the problem as a whole. Many types do not respond to the ordinary psychological approach."

So since I am so spiritually inclined, I'm very curious as to what your thoughts/feelings are about it :) I'd love to hear!

Hugs & Love

Nicole

Hey Nicole, ...

Okay, ... I think I need to read this again tomorrow A.M. ... Too much info for me to absorb at the moment ... and you've got several topics here ... and some of your sharing seems to me, might be better handled by communicating with a woman ... Mike and I are a couple of old farts that have learned to stay sober, and are enjoying life now ... and we help others when and where we can ... Speaking for myself, I'm not sure I totally understand all that's going on and I am a little hesitant now to recommend a direction for you ...

I do think you've come a long way in understanding what's going on with your BF ... and I think we're starting to get into other life problems and situations that aren't directly related to alcohol, which is where my area of experience lies ... But I will try to sum it up as I see it:

1) Your BF, from all appearances, needs to go to a Rehab center to detox with a doctor's care ...

2) He needs AA and only he can make that decision ...

3) Your TOP priority right now is doing what's right for your unborn child ...
(stop playing games with your Bf ... talk, text, write a letter to him, but let him know that he has a few months to decide if he wants to be a part of your life and the baby's life or not ... this gives him time to get his act together, but he should know that you cannot possibly look after a newborn and him at the same time)

4) If your BF hasn't taken steps to get help by the time your baby is born ... then you need to move on ... (BF needs to know he'll never see his baby unless he's sober)

5) Spirituality ... I HIGHLY recommend you read a book by William P. Young, called 'The Shack' ... This book gave me a concept of God that made working the AA steps possible for me ... (the 1st half of the book is a little depressing, but WOW, the second half may 'BLOW' you away ... and help straighten out some of the old religious mess you're carrying around ...)

6) Meds? ... Yep, they are necessary for certain people for a variety of reasons ... most are needed only temporarily, in my opinion ... but always with a doctor's advice ...


Ok, ya got me, I didn't wait til A.M. ... but I did lose one of my two brain cells I had remaining, today ... and dog gone-it ... the other one just ran off to find the first one ...
So good night and God Bless,
Pappy

Hey KF, ...

Alcoholism respects no 'one type' of person ... your BF may very well be a jerk ... but if your observations are accurate, then I'd call him more of an a**hole than anything else ...

Only you can make the decision whether he's worth waiting for or not ... he may be headed for a bottom he'll never climb out of ... or he may take the BB you left for him and turn his life around ... Whether you keep the door 'open' for him or whether you 'close' it, is entirely up to you ... Although I would be more comfortable with my decisions if I were in close contact with God ... And if you learn nothing else out of our little communications here, it's that spirituality is the key to peace and serenity in anyone's life ... in AA we learn to 'key in' on this very fact ... it's what makes AA successful ....


Again, take care and God Bless,
Pappy

Stepchild wrote:

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I'm at a position in life where I have to start over. No hurry for any relationships for me. I have to get my life together. Sounds like this guy hasn't got to that point yet. Stay strong for yourself and your child.

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But I shouldn't expect him to be a kind or loving creature while he is in a downward spiral, huh?

Maybe that was my HP providing the opportunity for me to leave the book.

But I got the invited opportunity from my HP. Maybe it was his HP? ;) regardless it was a force greater than either of us that was clearly saying right place, maybe one day I'll find out it was the right time too...

Anyway, I do get so much out of this and hope you all realize just how much you are all helping me through the roughest thing I've ever experienced. Oh and I got "The Shack" and another BB today Pappy! :) Hugs & much love! Nicole Oh!

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 Hey Nicole, ...

You are correct in having NO expectations of him while the alcohol is doing all his thinking for him ... In fact, we should always be careful in having expectations for anyone we truly care about because our expectations will usually always lead us to being let down because things didn't turn out like we wanted them to ... It is okay and good to have hope, but not expectations ...

I think you're probably right about the opportunity to leave a BB on his car ... God does work in mysterious ways ... He was always there for me, but I just didn't know it at the time ... (keep in mind we are not a religious group at all, but we are a spiritual group who have been led back to sanity through God's grace) ... I just hope your BF can see through the fog enough to see a solution to his problem laying right in front of him ...

I am so happy to hear you got 'The Shack' ... As a reminder, the first half of the story is depressing but leads you to life answers in the second half ... I'm trying not to build it up too much, but it was 'life changing' for me and many that I know ... OH, if you are the least bit emotional, have a box of tissues nearby ... (it's a fairly quick read ... and very powerful)

Love you and God Bless,

Pappy

Somebody gave me the big book about 10 years ago. I threw it out. I wasn't ready...I hadn't screwed up my life enough. Well I finished the job with a bang. God...The shit that I put myself through to get here. But I got here and that's all that counts. I'll pray for both of you. You sound like a nice lady...Just remember...The guy is sick and you are not to blame...for any of it. I have 5 months without a drink or drug yesterday...That's a miracle for me.

KeepingFaith wrote:

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 Yet won't deny it when I say I dislike the way his alcoholism & drugs make him behave.

Does he really forget everything???

Can't he process that I'm obviously upset? Or is that the denial taking over to avoid reality???

Nicole

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 Hey Nicole, ...

By him not denying he has a problem probably means he's thinking that he might have a problem ... this is probably a good thing ... at least you're continually bringing it up and making him think about it ...

Depending on the level of drugs and alcohol in his system, yes, it's very likely he can't remember the events or situations he was in the day or week before ... pg. 24 BB ... (also read pg.21 about the 'real' alcoholic) ... and just so you know, blackouts are very common among those of us who drank/drink heavily ... entire blocks of time where we continued to function in some fashion, then have absolutely 'no memory' 'what-so-ever' of what we did or said or how we got to the bed we find ourselves in or many other situations like this ... (I once was driving from Nashville to Atl. and woke up in handcuffs in the back of a police car ... and I could not, with all the effort I could muster, remember how I got there) ... (that's just one example, there are many more)

Your BF can probably process that you're upset, though he probably doesn't have the capacity to understand ... He's probably using your attitude toward him to further escape from reality ... He can't face it ... I have a friend on this web site that's going through the same thing with his GF ... and it can be the most 'gut wrenching' thing to go through in life ... to see someone you love destroy themselves and not be able to fix them, can tear you apart if you let it ... You do your best, accept the results, and turn it over to God to determine their future ... but don't stop loving them just because the disease is controlling them for now ... be there at least from a distance to step in and support them should they need your help ... don't completely turn your back on them ... God never did that for any of us, He waited patiently for us to see the Truth ... (unfortunately some of us die never waking up to this fact)(both alcoholics and non-alcoholics)

Hopefully, your BF and my friend's GF will someday soon, realize the acronym for S.O.B.E.R. is true ... Son Of a Bitch Everything's Real ... that they cannot keep living in a fantasy world ...

Take Care and God Bless,

Pappy

Hey Nicole, ...

Great share ... Keep in mind, and I think you're starting to realize this, is that what Mike and Stepchild and I are sharing with you may not be so much what we inject into the conversation as much as it is what God wants you to hear ... (by using us) ... He (God) does come to us in many different ways ... It's only when we're ready to open our eyes that it all starts making some sort of sense ...

AND I am Very interested in your opinion and thoughts on the book 'The Shack' ... Please, please, please keep in touch ... If you like, you can use the PM (Private Messaging)app. to respond if you like ...


You've quickly become another person in my life that I love, please take care and God Bless,
Pappy

Hey Nicole...I'm not a relationship or a marriage counselor...I have some real good experience on how to "F" them up. I was real good at that. After getting divorced about 7 years ago after 17 years of marriage which I butchered because of my drinking, I ended up moving to another state and continued drinking. I got into a relationship with a lady I really loved...and still do. I think my alcoholic mind was just happy I could get into a relationship after the trainwreck I just got done with. And of course I screwed that one up too.

All I can do is remember the good time I had with her and sometimes I get this feeling that I wish I could try again with her without alcohol. That would probably end up like being charactor defects on parade. I don't think that's in God's will for me but if it is...I guess I'd know it, it would have to come from her side.. I made my amends with her and haven't heard from her since. I think it was just one more lesson I needed...to see and face this problem I have. And I learned from it. It's only been five months for me in this program and I have learned a lot. I needed to change everything and I needed to grow the hell up. And I'm still working on both, and will be for the rest of my life. Alcohol was involved in every decision I have ever made...including getting into AA...What do they say?...It was the last house on the block for me. Nothing else worked. I guess I was blessed there wasn't kids involved...I just had to deal with time...And that's bad enough.

I think giving him the book, is great....What he does with it is more important. I don't see any reason for you to make an an amends with him...You have every right to be emotionally hurt. That amends should probably come from him...and my guess is he has to deal with his problem and grow up a little before you get one. If you get one. I'd deal with it like I deal with my problems now. Put it in God's hands and take what he gives you. Drinking is not an option for me anymore...But changing and growing up is. I just have to keep trudging on.

Take care of yourself.

Thanks Nicole, ...

Keep us up-to-date with things ...

Think I will move on to PMs due to the fact that we're moving away from the primary purpose of this discussion group ... 'dealing directly with the issue of alcohol' ... As you know Al-Anon is better suited to deal with the affects that addictions have on those who do not drink or drug ... but I'd like to continue our friendship because I care about your 'well-being' ...


Thanks again and God Bless,
Pappy

Cure lonliness with isolation?

WOW, I never thought of it that way ... and 'by-golly' you're right, I did that ... the more I was alone with my bottle, the more I liked it that way ... I really was curing my lonliness by isolating ...

Boy, Stepchild, you have the gift of getting 'real' deep, real quick ... heehee


Love ya bro,
Pappy

No Nicole, ...

You do not need to think opposite of what you would 'normally' ... You're not the one that needs changing ... Well, I take that back, everyone needs to 'wake-up' to the fact they're not running the 'show' ... (life) ... But in your situation I think you're doing exactly what you should be doing, that is trying to comprehend that his problem is not something you can personally do anything about ... As for trying to figure out his 'thinking' ... Hate to say this, but to fully understand, you'd have to be an alcoholic/addict yourself ... (and don't you dare think about putting yourself through that HELL) ...

You don't have to try and think what's opposite from your 'normal', but rather just try to IMAGINE what he's going through ... and you definitely seem to have grasped more about the dilema of the alcoholic than most any other non-alcoholic I've ever known ... Just be CAREFUL, the active alcoholic lives in a very SICK place, and you can be easily drawn into sickness yourself by being close to him(the alcoholic) ...

Keep learning but also keep a safe distance ...


Love Ya and God Bless,
Pappy

P.S.   How you coming on the book? ... 'The Shack'?

Hey Nicole, ...

I must say you do have a knack for asking some 'very' thought provoking questions ...

So question today: if he is trying so hard to maintain his job and bs social life, is it possible that he won't invlove me in any way because he cares about me???

Keep in mind, what I think doesn't matter, it's what you think that's important ... Personally, yes, I believe it is possible that deep within him, he knows he's screwed, as long as he keeps drinking and using ... and that alone may lead him to write you out of his life for fear of screwing your life up too ... I'm NOT saying that what's going through his mind, only that that possibility exists ...

Sorry, gotta go get some stuff done, take care and God Bless,
Pappy

Hey Nicole, ...

I'll PM you

Hi honey, I can can help.  (pm sent)

Here is something for you to think about before you go...It's out of one of the stories in the Big Book..Hope it helps.

And acceptance is the answer to all my problems
today. When I am disturbed, it is because I find some
person, place, thing, or situation, some fact of my life
unacceptable to me, and I can find no serenity until
I accept that person, place, thing, or situation as being
exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment.
Nothing, absolutely nothing, happens in Gods world
by mistake.

KeepingFaith wrote:

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Reminds me of Popeye! :)- "I ams what I ams and thats all that I ams..."

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 LOL...I guess you're right...

You want it to bring you success and income, right? And not just hanging somewhere dead weight. So in this case, it will be much more competent to order testing for the functionality and performance of your application. And also how it can work in conjunction with other applications. If you have never done this before, here is a link to good people who will help you with this.