Isn't it a blessing that God gives us ALL RESOURCES to help in recovery? To limit the views to ONE recovery in itself can possibly contribute to limiting our resources in complete recovery. If it hadn't been for other resource material and how God worked in my life to get me through my recovery, I would have NEVER found Alanon, AA or any other support group for that matter. So like I said, Thank God for ALL RESOURCES-- Furthermore, I thank God for the people he brought into my life that allowed me to talk about WHATEVER it was I felt helped me through when I was at my bottom-- INCLUDING my Christian beliefs that I came to discover. Had people not let me express that part of my spiritual awakening because of limiting it to traditions or what ONLY 1 resource says is the way they want it would have limited my growth in not letting me share what it REALLY was that helped in my recovery.
So I believe that it's best to allow ANYONE-- newcomer or not to express themselves fully, as who are we to tell ANYONE what they should or should not talk about IF IT HELPS IN THEIR RECOVERY. There is NO RIGHT way..... God provides several resources to help us recovery and what helps one may not help another and vice versa. Therefore, can't we let others be who they are and express WHATEVER it is they need to be free and comfortable in the direction that is best for them.
Perhaps a support group can lead someone to find God with others offering their experiences of recovery, as God led me to find the support groups. It isn't about just AA's way or no way.
Take Care!
-- Edited by sanddie at 23:08, 2005-09-24
nancyjo59 said
Sep 24, 2005
Love Your way of thinking.
I've used all the resources possible to help with my alcholism.
Having no vehicle...but having a computer...has opened up an entire new world for me.
If it were not for AA on-line, my life would still be in shambles
Take Care
Nancy Jo
cheri said
Sep 24, 2005
You may express yourself in any way you feel neccessary, but as an AA member I will continue to ask that the views expressed in an AA forum adhere to the traditions of AA.
There are other forums that allow you to express your religious views without running the risk of offending those that do not believe as you do.
Love, cheri
Rick said
Sep 25, 2005
Sanddie
I loved your posts and copied them
God is mentioned over and over in the big Book. I see no reason he can't be mentioned here.
My Higher Power - The Light Bulb By Clarence H. Snyder
(Clarence got sober in 1938, was sponsored by Dr. Bob, & started AA group #3 in Cleveland. In the first few years of his recovery Clarence had a higher recovery rate than Bill W. & Dr. Bob COMBINED. His story, "Home Brewmeister", can be found on page 297 of the 3rd Edition Big Book.)
In their sincere & honest attempt to maintain a "hands-off" policy regarding fellow members' religious beliefs & perhaps sensitivities, our founding fathers exercised gentle wisdom & proffered spiritual freedom. No one, it was rightly thought, should be permitted to impose his or her own religious concepts & beliefs upon any other member of the fellowship. This area was much too important to the prospective recoveree to be tampered with by mortal man. The very life of the prospect depends, ultimately, upon his or her "personal relationship" with a "Power greater than themselves." The notion was valid in the Program's earlier days - AND IT STILL IS! In no way, shape or form, however, was the idea conceived to avoid guiding our beloved newcomer along the path of spiritual progress. Quite the contrary, our whole purpose as recovered alcoholics, was & is to help the next person achieve sobriety. If that person is a real alcoholic his only hope is God. So in its most basic & simplest terms our only real purpose is to help the still-suffering alcoholic to find God. A loving God, a healing God is the alcoholic's only real hope. This is no easy task. A vast array of difficulties presents themselves to thwart the new person on his journey. The foremost adversary, of course, is the illness itself. It seems that many, many alcoholics have a very fierce, emotionally charged resistance to accepting any dependence upon a Power, which, to them, may seem an abstract & remotely distant concept. This internal resistance is most effectively broken down by the potential recoveree's initial desperation. (It seems such a shame that today's AA actually encourages the newcomer to avoid reaping the blessings of that desperation.) If intense enough & deep enough, this emotional "bottom" will be the very propellant the prospect needs to thrust him into the recovery process offered by AA through its 12 Steps.
Another stumbling block, which many people who are new to the program are currently encountering, is us! We seem to be full of fear regarding the responsibility we have been given in the area of spiritual guidance. We shirk this responsibility by evasiveness or by the direct sidestepping of the issue by such statements as, "It's God as you understand Him, & it's up to you to come to your own conclusions." So the newcomer is left to his own devices. He is expected to arrive, alone & unguided, at a relationship with his Creator. One of the most powerful & hope-filled statements to be found in the entire text of Alcoholics Anonymous can be found on page 25. "The great fact is just this, & nothing less: That we have had deep & effective spiritual experiences which have revolutionized our whole attitude toward life, toward our fellows & toward God's universe. The central fact of our lives today is the absolute certainty that our Creator has entered into our hearts & lives in a way that is indeed miraculous. He has commenced to accomplish those things for us which we could never do for ourselves." Are we, today, so far removed from our founder's results of our recovery program that these words are nothing more than a "nice thought" or an exaggeration due to artificially elated emotions? If so, we "obviously cannot transmit something we don't have." We cannot share awareness we don't have. Cannot give guidance we have never gotten. We cannot share a vision of God we have never seen. Our lack, thereby, becomes the newcomer's & he may die because of it! Our resistance becomes his license. In his liquor befogged mind he does not seek & experience God but begins to "create" one. It's no wonder his dryness becomes so barren that in a short while he returns to drink. His "Higher Power" was a light bulb! (No joke. We have heard this comment voiced more than once & not only by a newcomer!) Or perhaps this power greater than himself was a chair, or a wall, or even a mere mortal sponsor. A quick glance at the top of page 93 of the "Big Book" makes instantly clear a very important qualification in the concept of "...as you understand Him," & that is: "He can choose any conception he likes, PROVIDED IT MAKES SENSE TO HIM." Power greater than himself - a light bulb? A simple flick of a switch turns off that power. A wall? Not so powerful when confronted with a bulldozer. A chair? An axe can make quick kindling of that higher power. A sponsor then? If he fails to perfect his spiritual life, his old foe alcohol is sure to reclaim him. So he won't do very well as a greater power. How about a whole group? Possibly for someone else, but not for us. If one person is powerless over alcohol, & another, we would have a group of people who are powerless over alcohol. We do not have a group who ARE POWERFUL over alcohol. Yet they do not drink! They have gained access to something more powerful than alcohol. It was never intended that phrases such as "higher power," "power greater than ourselves," or "as we understood Him" were created as an enabling device to justify our membership's continued avoidance of a connection with our Creator. Page 46 of the AA book says, "we found that as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice & express even a willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced to get results, even though it was impossible for any of us to fully define or comprehend that Power which is God." Again, "...that Power, which is God." Our founders apparently held no reservations, whatsoever, with Who was dealing with them. Perhaps, we would be well advised to think twice before we attempt any ourselves. Alcoholics Anonymous is not allied with any religion, as we well know. But it is allied with God, "for our very lives as ex-problem drinkers depend on it." It is allied with spirituality, for despite what our preamble states, AA is not a "fellowship," it is a spiritual way of life. It is our most earnest desire that no one reading this feel that we are trying to impose any presentation of God of His nature on anyone. Our real hope is that a reader may be jolted from a position of complacency or spiritual evasion & get about the business of recovery.
sanddie said
Sep 25, 2005
Rick and Nancy:
To be open-minded is a blessing in itself. To limit views to only one way is secluding us from other possibilities of recovery that could contribute to overall success in recovery.
Like I said, although I am not an alcoholic, I am codependent... same concept-- addicted to unhealthy people and often get into unhealthy relationships. But as you, stopping consumption of alcohol, I am taking time to be on my own until I work out all of the emotions inside of me that cloud my thinking in choosing the wrong person for the wrong reason. I'm happy to say that I finally see the red flags in the people I would typically choose and turn the other way. That's not to say, I avoid them, or do not have a friendship with them, loving them and caring for them as a friend, but rather that I keep it at that level and realize that friendships are the most important aspect of this life. A friend til the end... is someone I believe God brings into our lives and being able to appreciate that accepts what God has given us.
Doll said
Sep 26, 2005
Keep 'um coming, Sanddie. I personally love your posts. And see it as you expressing your personal views. If this forum helps you as a co-dependent, then by all means keep coming back. You being here helps me to understand the pains I've caused from a different perspective. This is not a closed face to face AA meeting. This is a public forum on the internet. We share experience, strength and hope here. I say if those of us who do not share your views, then don't read them - If ya don't like what's on the tube, change the channel. ! It's a choice. "Take what you need and leave the rest" as the saying goes.
-- Edited by sanddie at 23:08, 2005-09-24
Love Your way of thinking.
I've used all the resources possible to help with my alcholism.
Having no vehicle...but having a computer...has opened up an entire new world for me.
If it were not for AA on-line, my life would still be in shambles
Take Care
Nancy Jo
You may express yourself in any way you feel neccessary, but as an AA member I will continue to ask that the views expressed in an AA forum adhere to the traditions of AA.
There are other forums that allow you to express your religious views without running the risk of offending those that do not believe as you do.
Love, cheri
Sanddie
I loved your posts and copied them
God is mentioned over and over in the big Book. I see no reason he can't be mentioned here.
My Higher Power - The Light BulbBy Clarence H. Snyder
(Clarence got sober in 1938, was sponsored by Dr. Bob, & started AA
group #3 in Cleveland. In the first few years of his recovery Clarence
had a higher recovery rate than Bill W. & Dr. Bob COMBINED. His story,
"Home Brewmeister", can be found on page 297 of the 3rd Edition Big
Book.)
In their sincere & honest attempt to maintain a "hands-off" policy
regarding fellow members' religious beliefs & perhaps sensitivities, our
founding fathers exercised gentle wisdom & proffered spiritual freedom.
No one, it was rightly thought, should be permitted to impose his or her
own religious concepts & beliefs upon any other member of the
fellowship. This area was much too important to the prospective
recoveree to be tampered with by mortal man. The very life of the
prospect depends, ultimately, upon his or her "personal relationship"
with a "Power greater than themselves." The notion was valid in the
Program's earlier days - AND IT STILL IS!
In no way, shape or form, however, was the idea conceived to avoid
guiding our beloved newcomer along the path of spiritual progress.
Quite the contrary, our whole purpose as recovered alcoholics, was & is
to help the next person achieve sobriety. If that person is a real
alcoholic his only hope is God. So in its most basic & simplest terms
our only real purpose is to help the still-suffering alcoholic to find
God. A loving God, a healing God is the alcoholic's only real hope.
This is no easy task. A vast array of difficulties presents themselves
to thwart the new person on his journey. The foremost adversary, of
course, is the illness itself. It seems that many, many alcoholics have
a very fierce, emotionally charged resistance to accepting any
dependence upon a Power, which, to them, may seem an abstract & remotely
distant concept.
This internal resistance is most effectively broken down by the
potential recoveree's initial desperation. (It seems such a shame that
today's AA actually encourages the newcomer to avoid reaping the
blessings of that desperation.) If intense enough & deep enough, this
emotional "bottom" will be the very propellant the prospect needs to
thrust him into the recovery process offered by AA through its 12 Steps.
Another stumbling block, which many people who are new to the program
are currently encountering, is us! We seem to be full of fear regarding
the responsibility we have been given in the area of spiritual guidance.
We shirk this responsibility by evasiveness or by the direct
sidestepping of the issue by such statements as, "It's God as you
understand Him, & it's up to you to come to your own conclusions." So
the newcomer is left to his own devices. He is expected to arrive,
alone & unguided, at a relationship with his Creator.
One of the most powerful & hope-filled statements to be found in the
entire text of Alcoholics Anonymous can be found on page 25. "The great
fact is just this, & nothing less: That we have had deep & effective
spiritual experiences which have revolutionized our whole attitude
toward life, toward our fellows & toward God's universe. The central
fact of our lives today is the absolute certainty that our Creator has
entered into our hearts & lives in a way that is indeed miraculous. He
has commenced to accomplish those things for us which we could never do
for ourselves." Are we, today, so far removed from our founder's
results of our recovery program that these words are nothing more than a
"nice thought" or an exaggeration due to artificially elated emotions?
If so, we "obviously cannot transmit something we don't have." We
cannot share awareness we don't have. Cannot give guidance we have
never gotten. We cannot share a vision of God we have never seen. Our
lack, thereby, becomes the newcomer's & he may die because of it!
Our resistance becomes his license. In his liquor befogged mind he does
not seek & experience God but begins to "create" one. It's no wonder
his dryness becomes so barren that in a short while he returns to drink.
His "Higher Power" was a light bulb! (No joke. We have heard this
comment voiced more than once & not only by a newcomer!) Or perhaps
this power greater than himself was a chair, or a wall, or even a mere
mortal sponsor. A quick glance at the top of page 93 of the "Big Book"
makes instantly clear a very important qualification in the concept of
"...as you understand Him," & that is: "He can choose any conception he
likes, PROVIDED IT MAKES SENSE TO HIM."
Power greater than himself - a light bulb? A simple flick of a switch
turns off that power. A wall? Not so powerful when confronted with a
bulldozer. A chair? An axe can make quick kindling of that higher
power. A sponsor then? If he fails to perfect his spiritual life, his
old foe alcohol is sure to reclaim him. So he won't do very well as a
greater power. How about a whole group? Possibly for someone else, but
not for us. If one person is powerless over alcohol, & another, we
would have a group of people who are powerless over alcohol. We do not
have a group who ARE POWERFUL over alcohol. Yet they do not drink!
They have gained access to something more powerful than alcohol.
It was never intended that phrases such as "higher power," "power
greater than ourselves," or "as we understood Him" were created as an
enabling device to justify our membership's continued avoidance of a
connection with our Creator. Page 46 of the AA book says, "we found
that as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice & express even a
willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced
to get results, even though it was impossible for any of us to fully
define or comprehend that Power which is God." Again, "...that Power,
which is God." Our founders apparently held no reservations,
whatsoever, with Who was dealing with them. Perhaps, we would be well
advised to think twice before we attempt any ourselves. Alcoholics
Anonymous is not allied with any religion, as we well know. But it is
allied with God, "for our very lives as ex-problem drinkers depend on
it." It is allied with spirituality, for despite what our preamble
states, AA is not a "fellowship," it is a spiritual way of life.
It is our most earnest desire that no one reading this feel that we are
trying to impose any presentation of God of His nature on anyone. Our
real hope is that a reader may be jolted from a position of complacency
or spiritual evasion & get about the business of recovery.
Keep 'um coming, Sanddie. I personally love your posts. And see it as you expressing your personal views. If this forum helps you as a co-dependent, then by all means keep coming back. You being here helps me to understand the pains I've caused from a different perspective. This is not a closed face to face AA meeting. This is a public forum on the internet. We share experience, strength and hope here. I say if those of us who do not share your views, then don't read them - If ya don't like what's on the tube, change the channel. ! It's a choice. "Take what you need and leave the rest" as the saying goes.
Much love to you, you're in my prayers
Doll
-- Edited by Doll at 07:53, 2005-09-26