Hi:- I just joined this message board. I'm been sober since 1985. I've sponsored quite a few people, but and not a "guru" and don't "troll" for sponsees.
On to the Subject: I'm sponsoring a young man -25 yrs old-who has 16 months of sobiety. He goes to meeting most every day. Since his one year, he goes mostly to young people's meetings, except for 1 a week that he attend with me. I'm not thrilled about that balance, but I accept it. And he has been chasing the young women since his one year anniversary. He's very smart, beginning a 4 year state college, and getting all A's, taking calculus, computer science, and the regular 1st year curricula. He has alway been honest with me - probably more honest than I was with my sponsor at that stage of my sobriety.
The issue is he's been staying overnight with a girl who is new to the program and has no sponsor. I've categorically told him this is not right and will cause peril to his sobriety and to her introduction to AA. I'm not looking here for additional reasons supporting my position. I've put them all out for him.
What I'm not sure about: if this situation persists, contrary to my "suggestions", should I tell him that he needs to get a different sponsor? Or should I let the situation play itself out and hope for the best?
Sorry this is so lenghty.
northern lights said
Dec 12, 2010
Hello M-Charles and welcome!
Re. with a girl who is new to the program and has no sponsor
I can only speak for myself but were my sponsee to do that with a newbie he/she would be out that door faster than ....well I don't know what. I would tell him/her that I cannot and will not condone them putting his/her own sexual needs ahead of a newcomers sobriety. Not a chance. I will not be party to it. Ever. Find another sponsor.
I may be OTT on this but it is the only way I can operate. I just couldn't go along with it.
((hugs))) Karen
StPeteDean said
Dec 12, 2010
I don't see why not, other than there is no mention of 13th stepping in the literature. Personally I'd put him on notice.
Toad said
Dec 12, 2010
Hi,
I was told at my first A.A. meeting by the old timers--------------------------
LEAVE THE WOMEN ALONE.......................................................................
It actually was delivered in a very direct way. There would be consequences.
Later on in sobriety I became grateful for the no tolerance stance.
Just my story.
Wayne
Rainspa said
Dec 12, 2010
Oh dear.
Since this is covered in step four, (the sexual inventory posted below by LinBaba) and he isn't willing to do the step, then yes, I think this is more than cause to cut him loose.
In my opinion as a sponsor, your job is to guide him through the steps. As I see it, his job is to BE willing to do the steps, something he is no longer willing to do. Therefore, he has effectively ended your sponsorship, the rest is a formality.
I would also, however, see if one of the ladies of AA could have a talk with her, or you do so. I don't think it will do much good now, but when this blows up hopefully she will turn to the program before the bottle.
What a nasty situation. I'm so sorry.
Rainspa
-- Edited by Rainspa on Sunday 12th of December 2010 08:22:30 PM
mental defect said
Dec 12, 2010
Bill recovered alcoholic. When I came in this time. I could not understand how two married man could tell me not to get envolved in a relationship for my first year. I was 24 they were old like forty something.well not being convinced I was like you people .I went and did it any way. We dated for 6 months . Well a total of seven and a half months. My dishoest mind told me that because we were not having sex it was cool . It also told me a lot of other things . She was sober for three years and we had history. And that it was gonna be different than the other failed marriages that I was still in .but because I did not see the license after the wedding .I was not married and because I did not get my wife pregnant well than I was sterile. I really thought I was working a program .you know don't drink go to meetings.lol well after I got this woman pregnant she broke it off. I then got a sponsor worked the steps.and my son who I got custody after 17 years of practicing this solution. Neither I or her got drunk only by the grace of God.I am not the orbituar of anyones sex conduct. I follow the book. I am not a priest.and I really don't like telling people how to live.I just show them what I do.if I had to do this stuff perfectly every day to stay sober my soberiety date would not be march 17 of ninety one. it would be today . All wrongs are wrong .sin is missing the mark. I do not have to life that way my idea of what me and my God is sane and sound.and I ask him to help me to shape it every day .thank God for a 12 step program .if anyone will get drunk it will be the sponsee not the new girl she is not practicing any thing.hence still selfish and self centered and dishonest and full of fear.just like I was
LinBaba said
Dec 12, 2010
M-Charles wrote:
Hi:- I just joined this message board. I'm been sober since 1985. I've sponsored quite a few people, but and not a "guru" and don't "troll" for sponsees.
On to the Subject: I'm sponsoring a young man -25 yrs old-who has 16 months of sobiety. He goes to meeting most every day. Since his one year, he goes mostly to young people's meetings, except for 1 a week that he attend with me. I'm not thrilled about that balance, but I accept it. And he has been chasing the young women since his one year anniversary. He's very smart, beginning a 4 year state college, and getting all A's, taking calculus, computer science, and the regular 1st year curricula. He has alway been honest with me - probably more honest than I was with my sponsor at that stage of my sobriety.
The issue is he's been staying overnight with a girl who is new to the program and has no sponsor. I've categorically told him this is not right and will cause peril to his sobriety and to her introduction to AA. I'm not looking here for additional reasons supporting my position. I've put them all out for him.
What I'm not sure about: if this situation persists, contrary to my "suggestions", should I tell him that he needs to get a different sponsor? Or should I let the situation play itself out and hope for the best?
Sorry this is so lenghty.
What does The Big Book say?
Now about sex. Many of needed an overhauling there. But above all, we tried to be sensible on this question. It's so easy to get way off the track. Here we find human opinions running to extremes absurd extremes, perhaps. One set of voices cry th at sex is a lust of our lower nature, a base necessity of procreation.
Then we have the voices who cry for sex and more sex; who bewail the institution of marriage; who think that most of the troubles of the race are traceable to sex causes. They think we do not have enough of it, or that it isn't the right kind. They s ee its significance everywhere. One school would allow man no flavor for his fare and the other would have us all on a straight pepper diet. We want to stay out of this controversy. We do not want to be the arbiter of anyone's sex conduct. We all have sex problems. We'd hardly be human if we didn't. What can we do about them?
We reviewed our own conduct over the years past. Where had we been selfish, dishonest, or inconsiderate? Whom had we hurt? Did we unjustifiably arouse jealousy, suspicion or bitterness? Where were we at fault, what should we have done instead? We got this all down on paper and looked at it.
In this way we tried to shape a sane and sound ideal for our future sex life. We subjected each relation to this test -was it selfish or not? We asked God to mold our ideals and help us to live up to them. We remembered always that our sex powers we re God-given and therefore good, neither to be used lightly or selfishly nor to be despised and loathed.
Whatever our ideal turns out to be, we must be willing to grow toward it. We must be willing to make amends where we have done harm, provided that we do not bring about still more harm in so doing. In other words, we treat sex as we would any other p roblem. In meditation, we ask God what we should do about each specific matter. The right answer will come, if we want it.
God alone can judge our sex situation. Counsel with persons is often desirable, but we let God be the final judge. We realize that some people are as fanatical about sex as others are loose. We avoid hysterical thinking or advice.
Suppose we fall short of the chosen ideal and stumble? Does this mean we are going to get drunk. Some people tell us so. But this is only a half-truth. It depends on us and on our motives. If we are sorry for what we have done, and have the honest desire to let God take us to better things, we believe we will be forgiven and will have learned our lesson. If we are not sorry, and our conduct continues to harm others, we are quite sure to drink. We are not theorizing. These are facts out of our ex perience.
To sum up about sex: We earnestly pray for the right ideal, for guidance in each questionable situation, for sanity, and for the strength to do the right thing. If sex is very troublesome, we throw ourselves the harder into helping others. We think o f their needs and work for them. This takes us out of ourselves. It quiets the imperious urge, when to yield would mean heartache.
What is your personal experience with dating in sobriety?
I try to share my experience with my sponsees, I break it down into a few categories
here is my experience, this is what I did and the consequences here is what the fellowship says, and why here is what the big book says here are my conclusions
Then they are on their own, I am not anyone else's higher power nor the AA Police, I have enough control issues in my personal/professional life without starting that shit with sponsees, I'd rather herd cats on catnip then try to tell alkies what to do
What I HAVE done a few times with sponsees is if I feel they are making a questionable decision sexually I have sat down with them and I have them do a sexual inventory following the instruction right out of the book, which, by the way is some of the most sound reading on the matter I have ever encountered.
I ask them:
Where had we been selfish, dishonest, or inconsiderate? Whom had we hurt? Did we unjustifiably arouse jealousy, suspicion or bitterness? Where were we at fault, what should we have done instead?
I will straight up ask, are you being selfish? Are you harming this person?
The answers they come to are their own
Me firing them doesn't do anybody any good, me sharing my experience strength and hope has done a lot of good
What I have ALSO done is if a sponsee encounters a situation I have no experience with, I have referred them to someone in sobriety who actually DOES have experience with this matter, for example, I try not give parenting advice since I don't have children, so I refer them someone I know who has extensive experience with parenting in sobriety, that way I avoid talking out of my *** for the most part....OK...sometimes
I will NOT sponsor a sexual predator, but I will share my experience, strength and hope, and as an exceptionally stupid man, I have a lot of experience, that's all I can share, I am not the arbiter of anyone else's sex conduct, and when I try, I tend to look in the mirror and know it's time for me to do a 4th step on my control issues again
I was at a newcomer meeting some years ago and relationships with newcomers was the topic so of course I had to shoot my mouth off and say "Anyone who sleeps with a newcomer gets everything they deserve, the one year rule isn't to protect the newcomer, it's to protect us from the newcomer"
I had been pretty harmful as a newcomer, I fell in and out of love with alarming frequency, I didn't mean to be harmful but one girl finally called me "an attractive nuisance", so I'm sharing my experience and make that statement, "Anyone who sleeps with a newcomer gets everything they deserve" and that week my girlfriend decides to get sober, the next week she asks me to take her to a meeting, she knows I like that one, so there I am the following week holding hands with a woman as she raises her hand identifying herself as a newcomer, the next year was quite possibly the worse year of my life, so as I go cry to my friends, they keep a straight face and say "A wise man I know said once that anyone who sleeps with a newcomer......"
I got sober young in a -busy- very active young fellowship, and we spent about 20% of our time working our programs and 80% of the time trying to figure out how to sleep together without having a relationship, I exagerate, but not by much, young people in AA run around and sleep together, and old people in AA run around after them and tell them not to, that's just how that is, or how it was with everyone I have ever met who got sober young, I was once the one so I am not going to be a hypocrite and become the other, since now I'm getting old and stuff.
I won't sponsor a sexual predator, but I have sponsored men that lost their heads over a newcomer, and in my experience they get everything they deserve, and they come back with their tail between their legs beat to s*** ready to work the steps, my experience is having a relationship with a crazy person is like giving our character defects crack cocaine
So for me I would ask myself is he a sexual predator or has he just fallen in love unwisely? Is he being selfish? Is he actually harming another person?
My old sponsor met his wife when he had 30 days of sobriety, he married her when he had 6 months of sobriety, and that was during the Eisenhower administration, they have been married for many happy, fruitful years, who are we to stop that? Not me cause I aint God, I don't know what's best for me, much less anyone else, so I will be DAMNED before I start playing God with people's lives
The young man you describe who goes to meetings every day, is more honest then you were, and who tells you everything sounds to me like a young man making a mistake, My God always allowed me to make my own mistakes as did my sponsors, so I have tried to always allow my own sponsees that grace as well
-- Edited by LinBaba on Sunday 12th of December 2010 07:08:37 PM
happycamper said
Dec 12, 2010
Its an outside issue.
Id continue to pray for him and be there for him.
LinBaba said
Dec 12, 2010
happycamper wrote:
Its an outside issue.
Id continue to pray for him and be there for him.
It's an inside issue actually, no pun intended, a straight pepper diet is what it is, and an issue that's covered in our literature, just happens to be one that is controversial, one which opinions run to extremes, absurd extremes perhaps, which is why we try to stay out of this controvery
StPeteDean said
Dec 12, 2010
LinBaba wrote:
What is your personal experience with dating in sobriety?
I had been pretty harmful as a newcomer, I fell in and out of love with alarming frequency, I didn't mean to be harmful but one girl finally called me "an attractive nuisance", so I'm sharing my experience and make that statement, "Anyone who sleeps with a newcomer gets everything they deserve" and that week my girlfriend decides to get sober, the next week she asks me to take her to a meeting, she knows I like that one, so there I am the following week holding hands with a woman as she raises her hand identifying herself as a newcomer, the next year was quite possibly the worse year of my life, so as I go cry to my friends, they keep a straight face and say "A wise man I know said once that anyone who sleeps with a newcomer......"
I got sober young in a -busy- very active young fellowship, and we spent about 20% of our time working our programs and 80% of the time trying to figure out how to sleep together without having a relationship, I exagerate, but not by much, young people in AA run around and sleep together, and old people in AA run around after them and tell them not to, that's just how that is, or how it was with everyone I have ever met who got sober young, I was once the one so I am not going to be a hypocrite and become the other, since now I'm getting old and stuff.
I won't sponsor a sexual predator, but I have sponsored men that lost their heads over a newcomer, and in my experience they get everything they deserve, and they come back with their tail between their legs beat to s*** ready to work the steps, my experience is having a relationship with a crazy person is like giving our character defects crack cocaine
So for me I would ask myself is he a sexual predator or has he just fallen in love unwisely? Is he being selfish? Is he actually harming another person?
My old sponsor met his wife when he had 30 days of sobriety, he married her when he had 6 months of sobriety, and that was during the Eisenhower administration, they have been married for many happy, fruitful years, who are we to stop that? Not me cause I aint God, I don't know what's best for me, much less anyone else, so I will be DAMNED before I start playing God with people's lives
The young man you describe who goes to meetings every day, is more honest then you were, and who tells you everything sounds to me like a young man making a mistake, My God always allowed me to make my own mistakes as did my sponsors, so I have tried to always allow my own sponsees that grace as well
-- Edited by LinBaba on Sunday 12th of December 2010 07:08:37 PM
Well LB, your opinion seems to be a product of your experience and perhaps you'd be a hypocrite if you criticized someone for sleeping with newcomers, I dunno. My experience was quite the opposite. I stayed out of relationships (and out of bed) for the first year. It was the best gift that I ever gave to myself. I also worked a Coda program, beginning at 6 months of sobriety, which is hard to do while in a relationship. I never slept with anyone or dated someone in the program that had less than a year. I stayed of relationships for the first 3 years, and at that point I dated an AA girl who also had 3 years. We got sober together at an AA club and we were friends. The relationship lasted 8 months and ended when I moved to FL. She was the only AA that I ever dated. Imo, dating in the program presents all kinds of risks, no mater how long you've been sober, I don't recommend it at all, no more than I'd recommend 2 blind people getting together. lol
LB i liked everything that you said, and it's dead accurate, but the OP stated that his sponcee had 18 months and was dating a brand newcomer. That's just wrong and it's totally different from 2 newcomers getting together, difference being, one of them knows better.
-- Edited by StPeteDean on Sunday 12th of December 2010 08:09:50 PM
LinBaba said
Dec 12, 2010
StPeteDean wrote:
I don't recommend it at all, no more than I'd recommend 2 blind people getting together. lol
LB i liked everything that you said, and it's dead accurate, but the OP stated that his sponcee had 18 months and was dating a brand newcomer. That's just wrong and it's totally different from 2 newcomers getting together, difference being, one of them knows better.
I have an opinion as well, a strong one, and it's the same as yours, but that's not what the question was so much ya know? The question is would I fire him. If I feel he is being a sexual predator and harming another human being I have to move on, if he has fallen in love with a newcomer, I am not going to chastise him for that any more then if he was dating a woman of a different race, hell that shit has been going on since the dawn of time, I mean dating inappropriately, remember the sharks and the jets bro
I just can't let my opinions interfere with my sponsorship, my opinion has no place in sponsorship, I also don't tell sponsees what to do...it just. doesn't. work.
Man, you know me, and you know my sponsee would have teeth marks all over his ass for making what I think is an ***hole mauever, but I wouldn't fire him unless I think he was a sexual predator, how can I be of service for when he comes crawling back if I fire him?
you can lead a horse to water.....
that's why I lay out:
here is my experience, this is what I did and the consequences here is what the fellowship says, and why here is what the big book says here are my conclusions
My conclusion is it is a bad idea, but that's all I can do is state my conclusion, explain how I arrived at it, state what the BB says, and state what the fellowship says
If I state it once, I am setting out information, if I have to keep restating it I have moved into codie land
It's not a good idea but I am not God, I am not omniscient, all I can do is refer them to those questions
Then I have them do a sexual 4th step, I have them ask the questions of themselves
Yes I inadvertantly ended up dating a newcomer because she decided to get sober as a result of dating me, yes it one of the worst years in my life
My friends didn't tell me to break up with her, they allowed me the dignity to make an ass of myself and suffer excruciating pain and learn my own lesson
All I can do is pass on my experience strength and hope, my opinion and telling someone what they can or cannot do has no place in my sponsorship, I pull covers and ask hard questions and take sponsees through the steps and share my experience
I've just dealt with this so many times, I have had so many sponsees throw themselves into stupid unhealthy relationships I personally think it is part of the process, and most make it back, and all of them have grown into good men, but wisdom and good judgment come from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgment
the results speak for themselves, I'm a far better sponsor then sponsee hahahahahahahaahhahahahaha
-- Edited by LinBaba on Sunday 12th of December 2010 08:46:18 PM
gladlee said
Dec 12, 2010
I agree with LinBaba, the role is never to put myself in the god position. But rather to be a channel for my HP. I have not followed the one-year rule either, and my HP never ditched me.
Thank you HP.
StPeteDean said
Dec 12, 2010
Hey my first post in this thread, to the question "Should I fire my sponcee" was "I don't see why not". I didn't say that he should or should not, I plainly said that I didn't see why he couldn't leaving the choice up to him. If it were me, I'd tell him to lay of the newcomer or find a new sponsor. And LB, I would consider him a "predator". As for "falling in love"? Hardly possible when you haven't learned how to love yourself first. Loving that newcomer would be allowing them the space to get sober, grow, and find a higher power.
gladlee said
Dec 12, 2010
Well, I don't know what the motive would be for firing the sponcee. But if it's to change him in any way, I believe that's not practicing step one. If it's to take care of yourself, M-Charles, that would be different.
I didn't do what my sponsor suggested. She let me discover on my own, that she was right. And she never said, I told you so, afterwards. She helps me to believe unconditional love is real.
happycamper said
Dec 12, 2010
Linbaba, you are so opinionated, and so by the book. 'which there really is nothing wrong with that. I believe what the book says.
I dont condone dating early in sobriety, but it certainly doesnt mean Im gonna dump a sponsee after working with them for however long because they do start dating someone else in the program. what kind of commitment does that prove?
However, not everybody goes by the book , word for word, sentence by sentence, step by step exactly how it says. Im also not saying that there should be variations either.
Im saying that if I am sponsoring someone who is 12 months or 6 months sober, has worked the steps, including a thorough 4th step on their past sexual conduct, and wants to date someone, then it is an outside issue and really none of my business. Do I like it? no, but its not my place to say to the person that they cannot do it. I can tell them how I feel, etc, etc. but Im suppose to pray for them and be there for them, not dump them.
If my sponsor had dumped me every time I made a mistake or didnt work the steps perfectly, I wouldnt have her right now. She stuck by me, thru it all, bad and good, right and wrong and she waited and she prayed, Lord I know she prayed for me.
To be perfectly honest, Im really surprised that M-Charles sponsee ( who is so smart, going to college, calculus, science, and blah blah ) isnt wise enough to know that what he is doing just might not be the right thing. Intelligence, or lack of it isnt what gets and keeps us sober, its attitude.
I remember that Im no doctor, or marriage counsellor, or financer. Im just an old drunk sharing with another. and at the end of the day it sorta boils down to love & service ... find one and perform the other.
LinBaba said
Dec 12, 2010
Maybe that explains why Bill Wilson had to get a sponsor outside AA, that boy hit some newcomers, but he stayed sober, and helped one or two people
I'm saying anyone should do anything, I am saying this is what I have done when faced with this experience with my own sponsees, and it has happened more then once
To Thine Own Self Be True
As for "falling in love"? Hardly possible when you haven't learned how to love yourself first. Loving that newcomer would be allowing them the space to get sober, grow, and find a higher power.
Well I will contact my old sponsor and tell him he should divorce that beautiful wife of his he met and fell in love with at 30 days and to give back that child, because married 20 years or not, he's not capable of telling the difference between love and mental illness
I know what my road is, I know what our literature says, I know what my experience is, I just am not qualified to tell others what their road is, I'm not God, plain and simple, and who wants to be judge, jury, and executioner of his own sick brother?
not me
My job as a sponsor is to take a man through the steps
This is AA not CODA or SLAA, if it was one of the latter 2 programs I may approach it differently, probably not
happycamper wrote:
Linbaba, you are so opinionated, and so by the book.
Jesus Wept, I give up
my whole point stated over and over was my -opinion- has no place in sponsorship
I share my experience, strength, and Hope, and The Program of Alcoholics Anonymous, which is found in that book, this has evidently gone out of style here in "AA"
the whole straight pepper diet, inside issue WAS a joke
but yes, I agree with you whole heartedly, wonderful post
-- Edited by LinBaba on Sunday 12th of December 2010 09:46:35 PM
M-Charles said
Dec 12, 2010
Thanks for all the thoughtful replies: I'll make this quick since the power in MA has been up & down for the last hour. It blew out may last attempt to reply.
He came over this PM and told me he broke it off with her, apologized, and suggested she get a sponsor.
I told him I was ready to cut him loose but I would not have threatened. I wanted him to do it 'cuz it was right not because of a threat from me.
He goes to BB and 12 Step meeting so he's heard most of what some have quoted. But it took me years for it all to sink in to my thick skull.
Thanks again, and God Bless. (the power went out the last time, just after I typed "God Bless". One of His tricks to keep me humble!!!!
LinBaba said
Dec 12, 2010
M-Charles wrote:He came over this PM and told me he broke it off with her, apologized, and suggested she get a sponsor.
I wanted him to do it 'cuz it was right not because of a threat from me.
Bingo, I rest my case, guy just sounded like someone making a bad decision, hell if we got fired for those aint none of have a sponsor
Thank you so much for providing me amusement this fine winter evening lol
Jerry F said
Dec 12, 2010
Having sex; for me is not the same as sleeping with...hardly any sleeping involved. Having sex; certainly wasn't about dating someone...most of the sex I was involved in was unplanned and spontaneous and the other and myself didn't set a date for it. Having sex; is the largest "nerve ending" excitement I have ever experienced unlike alcohol which depresses my system, sex is like a massive LSD hit with all of the toots and whistles and flashing lights Christmas and New Years all rolled into one 15 minute hit. Sex for me was a drug...pure and simple and honest. I used the word "love" around it but that wasn't so much about self love or loving the other person it was about loving "it" ...the hunt, the chase, the capture, the gymnastics, the explosion. When I got to inventory it with no one around other than HP and when necessary my sponsor I could see it clearly...It was about me and only me and rarely if ever was I really concerned about the other person except for more of the same with less of the initial effort.
I had many affairs in recovery...many. The women were easy to manipulate and needy. Those are the ones I hunted. There were also female members who wanted sex, "no questions asked" and didn't care about me either. Considering who comes to AA and what I have gone thru to get here uncommitted and irresponsible sex was normal and even expected. What's the point?
I knew alot about my sponsees by knowing myself. I knew how powerful sex affected the mind and emotions. I knew how powerless I was in the face of it as I was powerless over the affects of alcohol. Testosterone and adrenalin are running wild when I'm on that move and those are chemicals that flood the brain just like alcohol does when I'm drinking. The chemicals own me and become my purpose.
So when I work with a sponsee regarding this issue I approach it from the perspective of compassion for others and for remembering when I hurt others while trying to get my own selfish electric needs met. I speak about the value that shame and guilt have had on using alcohol to try to hide them and I talk about becoming undisciplined just like removing the steps, traditions and slogans from my life might result in walking away from my sobriety. I ask "Are you in or are you out?" and depending on that answer lays my support. If he is in we will discuss abuse of others to get our own needs met and the lesson will both broaden and become more contrasted. If he is out...no discussion is necessary.
My sponsees get to dump themselves. I don't use that word when working with another human being, a child of God, who is also alcoholic and desiring a better relationship with a HP, themselves, other alcoholics and their families and communities. Consider the metaphor of your HP dumping you when you wandered off the trail. One of my sponsees is currently in relapse however you call it. Relapse for me contains many pieces of evidence including drinking, drug using, random sex etc. I don't affirm his relapse and I am there for him with the program as I have been taught to work it when he reaches out. That is what HP did for me. I came thru the doors more than once. It was never my idea to be in AA but it was a suggestion followed with hope. I had a sponsor tend me and mentor me when he was dying from cancer...who am I going to walk away from after that lesson? I was a slow slow learner for cause and it never crossed his mind to dump me; thank you God.
Time to ask your sponsee to be honest and tell you truthfully why he cut it off with the young lady? His real reason. What did he have to overcome in himself to want and be able to do that? If he cut it off without inventorying it and his part in it and what he learned about the female he was using I ask them those questions. It's all about lessons for recovery.
Thanks for the thread...
-- Edited by Jerry F on Sunday 12th of December 2010 11:18:13 PM
bikerbill said
Dec 13, 2010
I have one guideline for my relationship with a sponsee (or my sponsor).
If it threatens MY sobriety, then it's gone.
I try not to sit in judgement, I try not to tell a sponsee what to do, I try not to give unasked for opinion. I try to say this is how it was for me, this is what happened. Now, you're a big boy, go sort it out.
Some of my sponsees sexual conduct has been not to my taste or standards. It don't bother me or my sobriety. I would have a word to point out the pitfalls. I might go back to it if they relapse.
Otherwise - is it any of my business?
StPeteDean said
Dec 13, 2010
LinBaba wrote:
As for "falling in love"? Hardly possible when you haven't learned how to love yourself first. Loving that newcomer would be allowing them the space to get sober, grow, and find a higher power.
Well I will contact my old sponsor and tell him he should divorce that beautiful wife of his he met and fell in love with at 30 days and to give back that child, because married 20 years or not, he's not capable of telling the difference between love and mental illness ________________________________________________________
LB, that doesn't prove anything. Love grows indefinately even if it started with lust between two sick people who got well together. You can always pull out an exeption but the reality is that most AAs have a rough time with relationships (#1 cause of relapse imo), even after many years of sobriety and the proof is in the pudding as a great deal of AAs with time live alone. I wish this board allowed for annonymous polls so we could have one about current living situations amongst AAs with over 5 years.
northern lights said
Dec 13, 2010
I don't see it as playing God to set healthy behavioural boundaries with my sponsees that protect another human being in early sobriety.
I make it clear from the beginning that anything like that I won't tolerate. It is a personal decision based on what happened to me. There are loads of sponsors out there. They don't have to choose me. I simply won't do it.
My sponsee's behaviour IS my business if he/she is harming a newbie. I don't care if folk think I am playing God. I take no prisoners on this issue.
There are people and things I won't tolerate. Other people can apply the same rules to me and my behaviour.
I may be wrong here but watching a sponsee of mine with that length of time jeopardise a newbie's sobriety for his/her own needs would not be feasible for me. Oh And I don't want to pray for the willingness to be tolerant either!!!!
I like the Jack Brennan approach - kind of "don't f*** with the newcomers" - literally too! Oh VERY ladylike Karen !!!! With love Karen xx
Rainspa said
Dec 13, 2010
Well, aren't we all happy now that
1. His SPONSOR's sobriety isn't compromised -Biker Bill
2. Sexually Predatory conduct is an "outside issue" and doesn't need to be addressed, and most importantly, his sponsor is there for HIM - Happy Camper.
3. It's really her fault because "the new girl she is not practicing any thing.hence still selfish and self centered and dishonest and full of fear.just like I was - Mental Defect
After all lets make sure this about HIM: He's very smart, beginning a 4 year state college, and getting all A's, taking calculus, computer science, and the regular 1st year curricula. LinBaba says "guy just sounded like someone making a bad decision, hell if we got fired for those aint none of have a sponsor"
She's just a drunk that hasn't been in the program long enough to get a sponsor. As Jerry F stated "The women were easy to manipulate and needy. "
"he has been chasing the young women"-(M-Charles), and goodness knows there are a lot to choose from (that have over a year of sobriety) and he CHOSE a sponsorless newbie. But hey, boys will be sexual predators, and telling them they are wrong would be "playing God".
"I've categorically told him this is not right and will cause peril ...to her introduction to AA." -M-Charles.
I'm sure everyone gets my point; however I am more than a little disgusted with the lack of concern for the young lady in question.
he broke it off with her, apologized, and suggested she get a sponsor.
So he dumped her, and to add insult to injury, evaluated HER program, (which now that he isn't sexually using her isn't quite up to his noble standards), and HE certainly had NO PROBLEM playing GOD, and telling HER what she needed to do for her spiritual progress. What a warm rightous glow THAT must have given our smart, sober boy.
But hey, he said he was sorry, right? BTW, was that apology to her or was that apology to his sponsor? Any plans to make amends to her? Anybody going to call and check up on her? Going to get sponsor boy to find a women in AA to talk to her after he's been a little tornado on the road to recovery, or shall we walk out of the storm celler, look at the destruction and say: Gee, Ma, Ain't it Grand the Wind's Stopped Blowin'?
I concour with LinBaba: Jesus Wept.
LinBaba said
Dec 13, 2010
StPeteDean wrote:
LinBaba wrote:
As for "falling in love"? Hardly possible when you haven't learned how to love yourself first. Loving that newcomer would be allowing them the space to get sober, grow, and find a higher power.
Well I will contact my old sponsor and tell him he should divorce that beautiful wife of his he met and fell in love with at 30 days and to give back that child, because married 20 years or not, he's not capable of telling the difference between love and mental illness ________________________________________________________
LB, that doesn't prove anything. Love grows indefinately even if it started with lust between two sick people who got well together. You can always pull out an exeption but the reality is that most AAs have a rough time with relationships (#1 cause of relapse imo), even after many years of sobriety and the proof is in the pudding as a great deal of AAs with time live alone. I wish this board allowed for annonymous polls so we could have one about current living situations amongst AAs with over 5 years.
The thing is we agree, our -opinion- of what happened is the same, but making blanket generalizations and applying them to every situation as -Absolute Truth - is a dangerous pitfall, it's just not sound sponsorship, nor is firing sponsees because of moral outrage about a situation one doesn't have the whole story on.
To use an example, there are many many people in AA who say if you haven't worked the steps out of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous with a sponsor who has done the same and then taken sponsees through those same steps out of the book you aren't truly "sober", you are a "dry drunk" since you never had The "spiritual awakening" as THE result of working THE steps laid out in The Program as outlined in The Book
I'd have to say as a general rule I have found that to be true, so what if I applied that to every single person I met without exception? Would I be being a bigot? At the very least I would be guilty of some shoddy math, "In the overwhelming majority of times this is true, so I am going to make a general sweeping statement and say it's true in all cases without exception, "if you haven't worked the steps out of the BB and done the same for a sponsee you aren't sober, you are a dry drunk"
How fair would I be being? How open minded would I be being? How teachable would I be being? Would I be being simply opinionated and closed minded, applying my world view on reality with no regard for what actually is? I have found "-The- statements" to be sketchy at best, people who claim to know -the- truth, because they follow -the- Buddha, or -the- Christ or even -the- program as the only truth to be dangerous. It doesn't allow for critical thinking, sure I will follow a mathematical theorem if I know it to work, such as the program or the steps, but it ain't -the- only way, and I will correct people if they call something -the- program when it clearly isn't, but by no means is my way the only way
I have never slept with a person with less time then me except in the case of the woman who, although she rarely drank, decided to get sober because she was dating me, Do I get to sit in judgment of others who HAVE slept with people who have less time then they do?
No, because that's not how this works, we aren't the Judge, Jury and Executioner of our own sick brother here in AA, all we do is share our experience, strength and hope with each other, and my experience has been when you sponsor guys in their twenties they make incredibly stupid sexual choices, as did I, so the crux of the matter as I see it is, Do I help by taking them through an inventory, Do I point out all the things that Rainspa just pointed out or do I throw them under the bus because of my moral outrage?
What DOES the BB say about this sort of behavior?
Suppose we fall short of the chosen ideal and stumble? Does this mean we are going to get drunk. Some people tell us so. But this is only a half-truth. It depends on us and on our motives. If we are sorry for what we have done, and have the honest desire to let God take us to better things, we believe we will be forgiven and will have learned our lesson. If we are not sorry, and our conduct continues to harm others, we are quite sure to drink. We are not theorizing. These are facts out of our experience.
The Carpenter was pals with a Lady by the name of Mary Magdelene, who according to one set of stories made some questionable sexual decisions, and he had some good things to say about stuff like this, like "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and "before you worry about the speck of sawdust in someone else's eye, take the plank out of your own"
I am not the arbiter of anyone else's sex conduct unless I feel they are a sexual predator, in which case I may break a few of the man's bones, a -crime- for which I personally have gone to jail for, a -crime- for which the charges were dropped when the DA heard the whole story
I can only share my experience, and my experience is when sponsoring young men, they make some dumbass decisions
-- Edited by LinBaba on Monday 13th of December 2010 11:16:59 AM
bikerbill said
Dec 13, 2010
Rainspa wrote:
Well, aren't we all happy now that
1. His SPONSOR's sobriety isn't compromised -Biker Bill
Perhaps one line taken in isolation can give a warped view. That's your prerogative. I stand by what I said. we're all big boys and girls and we will get ourselves in a mess. I didn't read of any overt predatory behavior (nor come to that any covert) but is the behaviour of a sponsee solely the business of the sponsor, or could anyone among us 'have a word.'
It's sure happened to me - a few women members with a length and quality of sobriety challenged me on being too close to women newcomers. It hurt but as was explained, even though I was behaving honourably, it didn't look like it and anyway, what would your wife say?
The question was from the Sponsor - should i drop my Sponsee?
My response was that if it were me and it affected my sobriety, then yes, otherwise no. A case of me using 100 words when 20 would've done it.
Rainspa said
Dec 13, 2010
guys in their twenties they make incredibly stupid sexual choices,
Boys will be Boys
as did I, so the crux of the matter as I see it is, Do I help by taking them through an inventory, Do I point out all the things that Rainspa just pointed out or do I throw them under the bus because of my moral outrage?
No, no, we've reserved that spot for her.
The Carpenter was pals with a Lady by the name of Mary Magdelene, who according to one set of stories made some questionable sexual decisions,
Being a prostitute (traditional view) last time I checked wasn't a "questionable sexual decision" but rather an economic one. The worlds oldest profession has always been shy on financially secure women that decide trading sex for money with strangers would be a interesting and pleasant hobby (exception Cesear's wife, but she was only in it for the one night and a bet).
and he had some good things to say about stuff like this, like "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and "before you worry about the speck of sawdust in someone else's eye, take the plank out of your own"
Can't play God with the boy. It's all good.
I am not the arbiter of anyone else's sex conduct unless I feel they are a sexual predator,
and here is the crux; leaving any feelings out of it,
A grown man persists in young peoples meetings against the wishes/suggestions/insistance of his sponsor.
Has spent four months "chasing women (girls)" no mention looking for love or seeking a relationship
He is in college where there are a lot of single women
He is part of a social group (young people's AA) with single women that are of equal or greater power and standing in that group
He knowingly chooses to have sex with someone with whom there is an unequal balance of power
He retreats, but not before sex
He tells her flaws, based on his superior knowledge and power in the social group they belong to (young people's AA)
His sponsor refers to, and introduces his behavior as the 13th step
What about that senerio isn't predatory?
in which case I may break a few of the man's bones, a -crime- for which I personally have gone to jail for, a -crime- for which the charges were dropped when the DA heard the whole story
I can only share my experience, and my experience is when sponsoring young men, they make some dumbass decisions
For which somebody gets to pay. As long as it is a disposible new girl, what's the harm?
He said he's sorry.
It was an accident, a mistake. His four months of trolling in Young Peoples meetings at twenty four (when surely in the eyes of God & man, the IRS and the DOD he's an adult Man) ....
Who's looking out for HER?
Toad said
Dec 13, 2010
Hi !!!!!!
Said the spider to the fly.
( Hard to tell who is the spider and who is the fly )
Recovery is defiantly an adventure.
Gotta love It.
Toad
LinBaba said
Dec 13, 2010
God I love moral outrage and rightous indignation, what is the spiritual axiom again?
One newcomer= possible (most likely) bad decision string of newcomers = sexual predator
Is she over 18? Is she retarded? Is she just a helpless waif with no mind or will of her own?
takes two people to do the dirty, to have "mutual consenting sex"
Bill was spot on, yet again
Now about sex. Many of needed an overhauling there. But above all, we tried to be sensible on this question. It's so easy to get way off the track. Here we find human opinions running to extremes absurd extremes, perhaps. One set of voices cry that sex is a lust of our lower nature, a base necessity of procreation.
Then we have the voices who cry for sex and more sex; who bewail the institution of marriage; who think that most of the troubles of the race are traceable to sex causes. They think we do not have enough of it, or that it isn't the right kind. They see its significance everywhere. One school would allow man no flavor for his fare and the other would have us all on a straight pepper diet.
So what does he say to do?
We want to stay out of this controversy. We do not want to be the arbiter of anyone's sex conduct. We all have sex problems. We'd hardly be human if we didn't. What can we do about them?
Always amusing to see this discussion and the double standards, the rightous indignation, and the moral outrage, I was hit on by plenty of women in my first year, and while there was some mild disapproval here and there, there wasn't the huge moral outrage I see if someone sleeps with a newcomer girl.
No one here condoned the behavior, not one person, as a matter of fact we saw opinions running to extremes, absurd extremes perhaps, it's so easy to get off the track
I am not the arbiter of peoples sex conduct unless I see a pattern of sexual predation, I am always amused at how much time people spend in AA running around trying to run other peoples sex lives in AA, in almost every case it's because they have an unsuccessful one of their own or had a bad experience in their own first year, in which case, it's just another case of the old alcoholic double standard, "Do as I say, not as I do"
keeps people sober though, either running around trying to get laid, or running around trying to keep other people from sleeping together, it seems to keep people pretty busy, and always makes for a great topic at a meeting, always amusing
This is Alcoholics Anonymous though, not "don't put your peepee into other people anonymous" although you'd never know it to see all the attempts to control other people and peoples own control issues raised by this topic
-- Edited by LinBaba on Monday 13th of December 2010 12:20:17 PM
Rainspa said
Dec 13, 2010
LinBaba wrote:
God I love moral outrage and rightous indignation, what is the spiritual axiom again?
So we have gone in one short post from
"I am not the arbiter of anyone else's sex conduct unless I feel they are a sexual predator" "I am not the arbiter of peoples sex conduct unless I see a pattern of sexual predation"
And let's not forget to blame her!
"Is she over 18? Is she retarded? Is she just a helpless waif with no mind or will of her own? [takes two people to do the dirty, to have "mutual consenting sex"]
There shall be no sympathy for the newcomer, the "most important person in the room", if she is 13th steped, well, that's her own fault, isn't it? She was probably asking for it anyway. How many times have we discussed the alcoholic fog that is part of early sobriety? How many times has doing 90 in 90 been suggested? And why? Because alcoholics in early sobriety are deminished in their mental and emotional capacities.
Did I disparage sex? I think not. I didn't hear anyone even bring up sex or no sex, or what kind of sex. This is not anyone's moral stance on sex. This is about power, knowledge and presige and using it selfishly to gratify one's needs.
I did disparage and still strongly do having sex when there is a power imbalance. I continue in that opinion, moral stance, whatever. Having sex with anyone or anything that are not in a position of the same amount of power brings in an element of coersion, or in the very least lack of informed consent.
In that case one person (the one with power) is selfishly using the one without.
Let's see what the Book has to say about it: "Whom have I harmed? where had we been selfish, dishonest or inconsiderate?"
If at a year of sobriety he was having sex with other one year olds, or women outside the program, or women with more sobriety there wouldn't be an issue. Because that's just some guy having sex. Hardly remarkable, and nobody's business.
"I was hit on by plenty of women in my first year, and while there was some mild disapproval here and there, there wasn't the huge moral outrage I see if someone sleeps with a newcomer girl."
Yes. And there would be even more moral outrage if the newcomer girl was underage. Because there is an imbalance of power, that makes this senario unequal, and unfair.
Humbert Humert.
Not enough blame for the newcomer? Well then how about anyone that thinks 13th steping is wrong?
in almost every case it's because they have an unsuccessful one [sex life]of their own or had a bad experience in their own first year.
And in that case, any information or opinion from them can be safely negated.
Playing everyone else that disagrees with your stance off as unsuccessful is simply a cheep shot.
I can only speak from personal experience, but you're spot off
There is a difference in power sexually between men and women. This is recognized in most moral systems, and by the laws of this country. An adult man in the rooms of "young people" and a newcomer being targeted by someone with over a year sobriety are not the same thing. Pretending that they are doesn't make it true.
-- Edited by Rainspa on Monday 13th of December 2010 01:36:24 PM
mental defect said
Dec 13, 2010
As to what my experience was its the facts of my life.not opinion. Oh and taking my inventory is mine.and with mt sponsor .amends were made to my son , who will be home from college this Thursday.to his mother.I never had sex with her again and I paid every penny of child support. I wonder if it will be and issue when I spea0 at her home group. of almost 23 years. I really doubt it. Will my. Sponsees or any of the men in my support group. Probably not. I have learned my lesson she is still sober. Our son is the product of to people were for all intensive purposes were infactuated to say the least.
M-Charles said
Dec 13, 2010
Some closing thoughts and I should have been more clear in my original post. My concern was that it would be dishonest for me and for the sponsee to maintain the relationship if he was violating a cardinal rule. That rule is not to damage another's sobriety. Selfish and selfcenteredness are a part of all out lives. They affect other people in our lives -yes- but as mentioned in many of the replies, if that were a "dealbreaker" no one could sponsor anyone.
But when the object of selfishness is someone new to sobriety, it belies a fundemental flaw in his motives and his practice of the program. We discussed this at length and while he didn't disagree with me, he was reluctant to commit to my suggestion to immediatly cease and desist.
If there is a contract between sponsor and sponsee, honesty, openmindedness, & willingness is part of it. If a sponsee is not taking suggestions, the contract is implicitly broken without the need for any official fireing by either. But when there is a critical issue, and I think this was critical, the sponsor needs to spell it out - for the good of both.
I'm comfortable at the result and have learned for the discussion in this forum. I won't post anymore on this topic anyway.
Jerry F said
Dec 13, 2010
It's a good thread don't you know. We can tell from the responses and we can tell other things too from it. I like it because it turns me back on my own recovery and asks me the questions, What do you do with this and why do you do it that way. I have most often asked my HP...how do you want me to do this especially when I am participating in program and with others. When I was drinking I pretty well destroyed and violated my own value systems by my thoughts, feelings and actions. AA and the Al-Anon Family Groups supported me and helped me to investigate and inventory what was there and what was left and to restore what was right and let go of the rest.
The program impresses upon me always that this is a journey of progress and perfection is an idle expectation. I hasn't ever happened and likely never will. I do the very best with what has been freely given to me by others and use acceptance of that guidepost after the fact. When I get too smart or too self involved and take a moment to quietly listen....I can hear God laugh.
Good work M-Charles...Mahalo
bikerbill said
Dec 14, 2010
I'm grateful for this thread, especially from Rainspa and the description of the power imbalance in relationships.
It's fair to say that all of my relationships while drinking were seriously imbalanced one way or the other.
In sobriety I want to achieve a closer balance. If that means being cautious in future relationships, then that's what I want to do. Ideally I want to achieve an even balance.
Thank you.
ferrisdp said
Dec 14, 2010
I learned a lot from this thread. I think it is good to have a forum where many views are expressed on what are sometimes difficult and controversial issues. It begs the reader to think and helps newcomers like me learn what they want to be when they begin the sponsorship leg of service.
This is something I won't be exposed to at meetings and gave me a course of action to take if I am ever faced with a similar issue.
I am glad you posted this. Thanks M-Charles.
angelov8 said
Dec 15, 2010
Thank god for women's meetings. This thread makes me feel grateful for the two in my area. Socially women are accomodaters and people pleasers. Any newcomer of either sex or of any sexual orientation is in a particularly vulnerable state. We can't trust ourselves to make good decisions or see things clearly. My post is not to state any right or wrong position. Here's some personal experiences:
In september, I started coming into contact in AA with about the hottest man I've seen in forever. We had about the same amount of time, a couple of months, me-after a slip, him brand new. We had some clinical interaction at an AA retreat and then I found him coming up and hugging me from behind after meetings, hard to tell, coulda been just friendly, but it felt odd, because we have never hung out or had any solid interaction before. I found myself dressing special for meetings, secretly hoping he'd be there. I realized I was having fantasies for the first time in forever. Reality check thankfully set in quick (yes, I am new to recovery AND married, and faithful, unless fantasies count) as soon as I consciously admitted this to myself. Absolutely the wrong motivation and an impediment to good recovery. Not an appropriate attitude for myself. Now I like to think that I'm not young and so dumb as I was, to let hormones get the best of me. However, I had to think that if I was 20 years younger, the first time around in the program and brand new to sobriety, (and actually single), I would have surely thrown all caution to the wind if I discovered that this fellow was totally interested.
I don't mean to say that a young female newcomer is not responsible for themselves. This means that as women members, we try to have a conversation on this sort of topic with female newcomers as soon as possible. The last one I had was with a gal 3 days into the program and she said that a guy she talked to after the meeting the day before had said he was so taken with her he'd wait a year for her and could they do stuff together as friends till then? She was very confused. What was this AA thing all about?
I also believe that the sexual biology of the male human makes a significant difference in regards to this topic-which reminds me of Jerry F's description of male relationship to sex, that was beautiful. The hormone's funtion differently in our bodies. I try to keep that in mind at all times and once a month.
Lastly I find I want to add here (although none of this or my entire post is much of a specific response to the intial thread question) an experience that has bothered me.
A while back, a female AA new to the area told me she wouldn't go with me to this mixed meeting ever, because when she went for the first time, she filled out the sign in sheet, which requests phone #'s. A man who was there approached her a few days later while at a gym and said he'd memorized her number and when could they get together for coffee? I thought this was really creepy, but she didn't want to make a deal of it. I currently advise female newcomers not to list their phone #'s on the sign in for mixed meetings, but to exchange numbers personally with other females after the meeting. So is this an example of "no body else's business?" Not really, But? Perhaps this same number memorizer is approaching tender young newbies? It's already keeping one person from a meeting. What's the AA tradition here? When I see him at the club, I want to point out the sexual misconduct poster on the entrance wall that one member had the boobies to put up. In stead I avoid this person at all costs, but I won't stay away from a meeting that I need to go to.
After thinking about all this since this post started, I'd have to say that I can't say what I'd do in the thead starter's case. I appreciated the distinction about predatory behavior. I think it's sometimes hard to tell. I do think it's a topic worthy of some serious conversation (because I agree with Dean, would not be surprized if a poll revealed that newcomer sex/relationships derail recovery #1) and I was keen on the suggestion for an on the spot sexual inventory.
-- Edited by angelov8 on Wednesday 15th of December 2010 03:37:10 AM
bikerbill said
Dec 15, 2010
Broad generalisation here I know but...............
I had to go to a women's meeting one time, there was no other meeting available within a 2 hour drive that I could get to and it was the most uncomfortable meeting I've ever been to (I wasn't the only bloke there), but tell me, what the hell had PMT, sexual stereotyping in the media and last night's soap got to do with sobriety? Not welcoming, in fact quite hostile, but at least no-one 'hit on me.'
and the safest meetings I ever went to (sexually) were the LGBT meetings in Glasgow, who rigidly stuck to matters concerning our alcoholism and our recovery. But it was in a seriously rough part of town. (Are there any other parts in Glasgow?)
On the whole point of specialist meetings though. Why? The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking - not to stop drinking and be a man, a woman, a professional, a doctor, a lawyer, a celebrity, a rock star, heterosexual, homosexual etc. etc. etc. For me I suppose so long as I don't get turned away you can call it what you will.
pinkchip said
Dec 15, 2010
In a GLBT meeting I can talk about my boyfriend and not have to deal with people's attitudes. Also, if required to tell my story, I cannot tell it without talking about my past relationships, coming out of the closet, the gay bars....I told my story once to a group of straight folks on an impatient unit and all they all overfocused on the Gay thing...Shrug. Being part of the last openly discriminated against minority is not easy and it does affect my sobriety. The program emphasizes honesty and LGBT meetings are the only place some people who fit that category can go to be totally honest. That is why those meetings exist....speaking here from my own experience.
And Bill, they may be safe for you because you are straight...Lots of women go to them to not get hit on also. Me on the other hand...I get hit on all the time :)
bikerbill said
Dec 15, 2010
Oi, pinkchip. I might be straight, but i'm damnably handsome you know.
angelov8 said
Dec 15, 2010
The main reason I go to WO meetings is because of what Pink said. There is a level of honesty and love present in the room that is not the same. I don't think a hetero man attending a woman's meeting would get that, but what do I know. Bottom line, if men show up it's fine-I love them for sure and sobriety is number one. Does anyone here go to stag meetings? Maybe we should have a new thread on special interest meetings, I don't think we've had one for awhile.
dionysis said
Jan 21, 2011
I think AA minds its business about anything but alkies staying away from a drink..
as a sponsor I would put it in the context of the steps, step 2 is this sane behavior?,
I would have to work on turning it over and humility, I would not want to be in the sponsee's head about if this is love or lust, but if it comes up posing that questions to them
to decide for themselves with HP... It can be more harmful for AA to overstep here...
But I wrote because I really think it is important that AA butts out of nosy - non-humility based unqualified opinions on romance. Predators of course need to be dealt with by a group conscience.
Not me, the sponsor individually unless it is putting the information in the sponsee's hands as a tool to use spiritually - imperfectly, and with a fair amount of available grace.. good luck, sounds like a good opportunity for you.
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I just joined this message board. I'm been sober since 1985. I've sponsored quite a few people, but and not a "guru" and don't "troll" for sponsees.
On to the Subject: I'm sponsoring a young man -25 yrs old-who has 16 months of sobiety. He goes to meeting most every day. Since his one year, he goes mostly to young people's meetings, except for 1 a week that he attend with me. I'm not thrilled about that balance, but I accept it. And he has been chasing the young women since his one year anniversary. He's very smart, beginning a 4 year state college, and getting all A's, taking calculus, computer science, and the regular 1st year curricula. He has alway been honest with me - probably more honest than I was with my sponsor at that stage of my sobriety.
The issue is he's been staying overnight with a girl who is new to the program and has no sponsor. I've categorically told him this is not right and will cause peril to his sobriety and to her introduction to AA. I'm not looking here for additional reasons supporting my position. I've put them all out for him.
What I'm not sure about: if this situation persists, contrary to my "suggestions", should I tell him that he needs to get a different sponsor? Or should I let the situation play itself out and hope for the best?
Sorry this is so lenghty.
Re.
I can only speak for myself but were my sponsee to do that with a newbie he/she would be out that door faster than ....well I don't know what. I would tell him/her that I cannot and will not condone them putting his/her own sexual needs ahead of a newcomers sobriety. Not a chance. I will not be party to it. Ever. Find another sponsor.
I may be OTT on this but it is the only way I can operate. I just couldn't go along with it.
((hugs)))
Karen
Since this is covered in step four, (the sexual inventory posted below by LinBaba) and he isn't willing to do the step, then yes, I think this is more than cause to cut him loose.
In my opinion as a sponsor, your job is to guide him through the steps. As I see it, his job is to BE willing to do the steps, something he is no longer willing to do. Therefore, he has effectively ended your sponsorship, the rest is a formality.
I would also, however, see if one of the ladies of AA could have a talk with her, or you do so. I don't think it will do much good now, but when this blows up hopefully she will turn to the program before the bottle.
What a nasty situation. I'm so sorry.
Rainspa
-- Edited by Rainspa on Sunday 12th of December 2010 08:22:30 PM
-- Edited by LinBaba on Sunday 12th of December 2010 07:08:37 PM
LB i liked everything that you said, and it's dead accurate, but the OP stated that his sponcee had 18 months and was dating a brand newcomer. That's just wrong and it's totally different from 2 newcomers getting together, difference being, one of them knows better.
-- Edited by StPeteDean on Sunday 12th of December 2010 08:09:50 PM
I just can't let my opinions interfere with my sponsorship, my opinion has no place in sponsorship, I also don't tell sponsees what to do...it just. doesn't. work.
Man, you know me, and you know my sponsee would have teeth marks all over his ass for making what I think is an ***hole mauever, but I wouldn't fire him unless I think he was a sexual predator, how can I be of service for when he comes crawling back if I fire him?
you can lead a horse to water.....
that's why I lay out:
here is my experience, this is what I did and the consequences
here is what the fellowship says, and why
here is what the big book says
here are my conclusions
My conclusion is it is a bad idea, but that's all I can do is state my conclusion, explain how I arrived at it, state what the BB says, and state what the fellowship says
If I state it once, I am setting out information, if I have to keep restating it I have moved into codie land
It's not a good idea but I am not God, I am not omniscient, all I can do is refer them to those questions
Then I have them do a sexual 4th step, I have them ask the questions of themselves
Yes I inadvertantly ended up dating a newcomer because she decided to get sober as a result of dating me, yes it one of the worst years in my life
My friends didn't tell me to break up with her, they allowed me the dignity to make an ass of myself and suffer excruciating pain and learn my own lesson
All I can do is pass on my experience strength and hope, my opinion and telling someone what they can or cannot do has no place in my sponsorship, I pull covers and ask hard questions and take sponsees through the steps and share my experience
I've just dealt with this so many times, I have had so many sponsees throw themselves into stupid unhealthy relationships I personally think it is part of the process, and most make it back, and all of them have grown into good men, but wisdom and good judgment come from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgment
the results speak for themselves, I'm a far better sponsor then sponsee hahahahahahahaahhahahahaha
-- Edited by LinBaba on Sunday 12th of December 2010 08:46:18 PM
I'm saying anyone should do anything, I am saying this is what I have done when faced with this experience with my own sponsees, and it has happened more then once
To Thine Own Self Be True
As for "falling in love"? Hardly possible when you haven't learned how to love yourself first. Loving that newcomer would be allowing them the space to get sober, grow, and find a higher power.
Well I will contact my old sponsor and tell him he should divorce that beautiful wife of his he met and fell in love with at 30 days and to give back that child, because married 20 years or not, he's not capable of telling the difference between love and mental illness
I know what my road is, I know what our literature says, I know what my experience is, I just am not qualified to tell others what their road is, I'm not God, plain and simple, and who wants to be judge, jury, and executioner of his own sick brother?
not me
My job as a sponsor is to take a man through the steps
This is AA not CODA or SLAA, if it was one of the latter 2 programs I may approach it differently, probably not
-- Edited by LinBaba on Sunday 12th of December 2010 09:46:35 PM
He came over this PM and told me he broke it off with her, apologized, and suggested she get a sponsor.
I told him I was ready to cut him loose but I would not have threatened. I wanted him to do it 'cuz it was right not because of a threat from me.
He goes to BB and 12 Step meeting so he's heard most of what some have quoted. But it took me years for it all to sink in to my thick skull.
Thanks again, and God Bless. (the power went out the last time, just after I typed "God Bless". One of His tricks to keep me humble!!!!
Having sex; for me is not the same as sleeping with...hardly any sleeping involved.
Having sex; certainly wasn't about dating someone...most of the sex I was involved
in was unplanned and spontaneous and the other and myself didn't set a date for it.
Having sex; is the largest "nerve ending" excitement I have ever experienced unlike
alcohol which depresses my system, sex is like a massive LSD hit with all of the
toots and whistles and flashing lights Christmas and New Years all rolled into one
15 minute hit. Sex for me was a drug...pure and simple and honest. I used the
word "love" around it but that wasn't so much about self love or loving the other
person it was about loving "it" ...the hunt, the chase, the capture, the gymnastics,
the explosion. When I got to inventory it with no one around other than HP and when
necessary my sponsor I could see it clearly...It was about me and only me and rarely
if ever was I really concerned about the other person except for more of the same
with less of the initial effort.
I had many affairs in recovery...many. The women were easy to manipulate and
needy. Those are the ones I hunted. There were also female members who wanted
sex, "no questions asked" and didn't care about me either. Considering who comes
to AA and what I have gone thru to get here uncommitted and irresponsible sex was
normal and even expected. What's the point?
I knew alot about my sponsees by knowing myself. I knew how powerful sex affected
the mind and emotions. I knew how powerless I was in the face of it as I was
powerless over the affects of alcohol. Testosterone and adrenalin are running wild
when I'm on that move and those are chemicals that flood the brain just like alcohol
does when I'm drinking. The chemicals own me and become my purpose.
So when I work with a sponsee regarding this issue I approach it from the perspective
of compassion for others and for remembering when I hurt others while trying to get
my own selfish electric needs met. I speak about the value that shame and guilt
have had on using alcohol to try to hide them and I talk about becoming undisciplined
just like removing the steps, traditions and slogans from my life might result in
walking away from my sobriety. I ask "Are you in or are you out?" and depending on
that answer lays my support. If he is in we will discuss abuse of others to get our
own needs met and the lesson will both broaden and become more contrasted. If he
is out...no discussion is necessary.
My sponsees get to dump themselves. I don't use that word when working with
another human being, a child of God, who is also alcoholic and desiring a better
relationship with a HP, themselves, other alcoholics and their families and communities.
Consider the metaphor of your HP dumping you when you wandered off the trail.
One of my sponsees is currently in relapse however you call it. Relapse for me
contains many pieces of evidence including drinking, drug using, random sex etc.
I don't affirm his relapse and I am there for him with the program as I have been
taught to work it when he reaches out. That is what HP did for me. I came thru
the doors more than once. It was never my idea to be in AA but it was a suggestion
followed with hope. I had a sponsor tend me and mentor me when he was dying
from cancer...who am I going to walk away from after that lesson? I was a slow
slow learner for cause and it never crossed his mind to dump me; thank you God.
Time to ask your sponsee to be honest and tell you truthfully why he cut it off with
the young lady? His real reason. What did he have to overcome in himself to want
and be able to do that? If he cut it off without inventorying it and his part in it and
what he learned about the female he was using I ask them those questions. It's
all about lessons for recovery.
Thanks for the thread...
-- Edited by Jerry F on Sunday 12th of December 2010 11:18:13 PM
If it threatens MY sobriety, then it's gone.
I try not to sit in judgement, I try not to tell a sponsee what to do, I try not to give unasked for opinion. I try to say this is how it was for me, this is what happened. Now, you're a big boy, go sort it out.
Some of my sponsees sexual conduct has been not to my taste or standards. It don't bother me or my sobriety. I would have a word to point out the pitfalls. I might go back to it if they relapse.
Otherwise - is it any of my business?
I make it clear from the beginning that anything like that I won't tolerate. It is a personal decision based on what happened to me.
There are loads of sponsors out there. They don't have to choose me.
I simply won't do it.
My sponsee's behaviour IS my business if he/she is harming a newbie. I don't care if folk think I am playing God. I take no prisoners on this issue.
There are people and things I won't tolerate. Other people can apply the same rules to me and my behaviour.
I may be wrong here but watching a sponsee of mine with that length of time jeopardise a newbie's sobriety for his/her own needs would not be feasible for me.
Oh And I don't want to pray for the willingness to be tolerant either!!!!
I like the Jack Brennan approach - kind of "don't f*** with the newcomers" - literally too!
With love
Karen xx
-- Edited by LinBaba on Monday 13th of December 2010 11:16:59 AM
He said he's sorry.
It was an accident, a mistake. His four months of trolling in Young Peoples meetings at twenty four (when surely in the eyes of God & man, the IRS and the DOD he's an adult Man) ....
Who's looking out for HER?
One newcomer= possible (most likely) bad decision
string of newcomers = sexual predator
Is she over 18? Is she retarded? Is she just a helpless waif with no mind or will of her own?
takes two people to do the dirty, to have "mutual consenting sex"
Bill was spot on, yet again
Now about sex. Many of needed an overhauling there. But above all, we tried to be sensible on this question. It's so easy to get way off the track. Here we find human opinions running to extremes absurd extremes, perhaps. One set of voices cry that sex is a lust of our lower nature, a base necessity of procreation.
Then we have the voices who cry for sex and more sex; who bewail the institution of marriage; who think that most of the troubles of the race are traceable to sex causes. They think we do not have enough of it, or that it isn't the right kind. They see its significance everywhere. One school would allow man no flavor for his fare and the other would have us all on a straight pepper diet.
So what does he say to do?
We want to stay out of this controversy. We do not want to be the arbiter of anyone's sex conduct. We all have sex problems. We'd hardly be human if we didn't. What can we do about them?
Always amusing to see this discussion and the double standards, the rightous indignation, and the moral outrage, I was hit on by plenty of women in my first year, and while there was some mild disapproval here and there, there wasn't the huge moral outrage I see if someone sleeps with a newcomer girl.
No one here condoned the behavior, not one person, as a matter of fact we saw opinions running to extremes, absurd extremes perhaps, it's so easy to get off the track
I am not the arbiter of peoples sex conduct unless I see a pattern of sexual predation, I am always amused at how much time people spend in AA running around trying to run other peoples sex lives in AA, in almost every case it's because they have an unsuccessful one of their own or had a bad experience in their own first year, in which case, it's just another case of the old alcoholic double standard, "Do as I say, not as I do"
keeps people sober though, either running around trying to get laid, or running around trying to keep other people from sleeping together, it seems to keep people pretty busy, and always makes for a great topic at a meeting, always amusing
This is Alcoholics Anonymous though, not "don't put your peepee into other people anonymous" although you'd never know it to see all the attempts to control other people and peoples own control issues raised by this topic
-- Edited by LinBaba on Monday 13th of December 2010 12:20:17 PM
-- Edited by Rainspa on Monday 13th of December 2010 01:36:24 PM
Some closing thoughts and I should have been more clear in my original post. My concern was that it would be dishonest for me and for the sponsee to maintain the relationship if he was violating a cardinal rule. That rule is not to damage another's sobriety. Selfish and selfcenteredness are a part of all out lives. They affect other people in our lives -yes- but as mentioned in many of the replies, if that were a "dealbreaker" no one could sponsor anyone.
But when the object of selfishness is someone new to sobriety, it belies a fundemental flaw in his motives and his practice of the program. We discussed this at length and while he didn't disagree with me, he was reluctant to commit to my suggestion to immediatly cease and desist.
If there is a contract between sponsor and sponsee, honesty, openmindedness, & willingness is part of it. If a sponsee is not taking suggestions, the contract is implicitly broken without the need for any official fireing by either. But when there is a critical issue, and I think this was critical, the sponsor needs to spell it out - for the good of both.
I'm comfortable at the result and have learned for the discussion in this forum. I won't post anymore on this topic anyway.
It's a good thread don't you know. We can tell from the responses and we can tell
other things too from it. I like it because it turns me back on my own recovery and
asks me the questions, What do you do with this and why do you do it that way. I
have most often asked my HP...how do you want me to do this especially when I am
participating in program and with others. When I was drinking I pretty well destroyed
and violated my own value systems by my thoughts, feelings and actions. AA and
the Al-Anon Family Groups supported me and helped me to investigate and inventory
what was there and what was left and to restore what was right and let go of the rest.
The program impresses upon me always that this is a journey of progress and
perfection is an idle expectation. I hasn't ever happened and likely never will. I do
the very best with what has been freely given to me by others and use acceptance of
that guidepost after the fact. When I get too smart or too self involved and take
a moment to quietly listen....I can hear God laugh.
Good work M-Charles...Mahalo
This is something I won't be exposed to at meetings and gave me a course of action to take if I am ever faced with a similar issue.
I am glad you posted this. Thanks M-Charles.
In september, I started coming into contact in AA with about the hottest man I've seen in forever. We had about the same amount of time, a couple of months, me-after a slip, him brand new. We had some clinical interaction at an AA retreat and then I found him coming up and hugging me from behind after meetings, hard to tell, coulda been just friendly, but it felt odd, because we have never hung out or had any solid interaction before. I found myself dressing special for meetings, secretly hoping he'd be there. I realized I was having fantasies for the first time in forever. Reality check thankfully set in quick (yes, I am new to recovery AND married, and faithful, unless fantasies count) as soon as I consciously admitted this to myself. Absolutely the wrong motivation and an impediment to good recovery. Not an appropriate attitude for myself. Now I like to think that I'm not young and so dumb as I was, to let hormones get the best of me. However, I had to think that if I was 20 years younger, the first time around in the program and brand new to sobriety, (and actually single), I would have surely thrown all caution to the wind if I discovered that this fellow was totally interested.
I don't mean to say that a young female newcomer is not responsible for themselves. This means that as women members, we try to have a conversation on this sort of topic with female newcomers as soon as possible. The last one I had was with a gal 3 days into the program and she said that a guy she talked to after the meeting the day before had said he was so taken with her he'd wait a year for her and could they do stuff together as friends till then? She was very confused. What was this AA thing all about?
I also believe that the sexual biology of the male human makes a significant difference in regards to this topic-which reminds me of Jerry F's description of male relationship to sex, that was beautiful. The hormone's funtion differently in our bodies. I try to keep that in mind at all times and once a month.
Lastly I find I want to add here (although none of this or my entire post is much of a specific response to the intial thread question) an experience that has bothered me.
A while back, a female AA new to the area told me she wouldn't go with me to this mixed meeting ever, because when she went for the first time, she filled out the sign in sheet, which requests phone #'s. A man who was there approached her a few days later while at a gym and said he'd memorized her number and when could they get together for coffee?
I thought this was really creepy, but she didn't want to make a deal of it. I currently advise female newcomers not to list their phone #'s on the sign in for mixed meetings, but to exchange numbers personally with other females after the meeting.
So is this an example of "no body else's business?" Not really, But? Perhaps this same number memorizer is approaching tender young newbies? It's already keeping one person from a meeting. What's the AA tradition here? When I see him at the club, I want to point out the sexual misconduct poster on the entrance wall that one member had the boobies to put up. In stead I avoid this person at all costs, but I won't stay away from a meeting that I need to go to.
After thinking about all this since this post started, I'd have to say that I can't say what I'd do in the thead starter's case. I appreciated the distinction about predatory behavior. I think it's sometimes hard to tell. I do think it's a topic worthy of some serious conversation (because I agree with Dean, would not be surprized if a poll revealed that newcomer sex/relationships derail recovery #1) and I was keen on the suggestion for an on the spot sexual inventory.
-- Edited by angelov8 on Wednesday 15th of December 2010 03:37:10 AM
I had to go to a women's meeting one time, there was no other meeting available within a 2 hour drive that I could get to and it was the most uncomfortable meeting I've ever been to (I wasn't the only bloke there), but tell me, what the hell had PMT, sexual stereotyping in the media and last night's soap got to do with sobriety? Not welcoming, in fact quite hostile, but at least no-one 'hit on me.'
and the safest meetings I ever went to (sexually) were the LGBT meetings in Glasgow, who rigidly stuck to matters concerning our alcoholism and our recovery.
But it was in a seriously rough part of town. (Are there any other parts in Glasgow?)
On the whole point of specialist meetings though. Why? The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking - not to stop drinking and be a man, a woman, a professional, a doctor, a lawyer, a celebrity, a rock star, heterosexual, homosexual etc. etc. etc. For me I suppose so long as I don't get turned away you can call it what you will.
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