I have not drank in 3 months, been with the program for 6 months...I am still very new to all of this and have only been thinking of my lists of people to make amends to. In the process of explaining AA to my husband I have mentioned this amends list. I was surprised to hear him say the other day "you talk about this amends list, I want to know when you are going to come clean and make one to me" In further talking I didnt realize--although I was aware somewhat of it--how painfully angry he still is about me lying to him during my drinking episodes. It is clear he wants me to tell him everything. I told him I am definitely not ready to do this as the shame of it all is still so painful for me, I just cannot "come clean" with all of my drinking deception. I told him that I accept the harsh fact that I have a long way to go in gaining his trust and respect back, I know I have to earn this.
The whole conversation just really strengthened my reasons for not drinking anymore...I simply cannot go back to this life of shame and deception--I just do not want that anymore. For this I am glad we had this conversation, but I just do not know when I will make my amends to him. It would be great if I could find an Al-anon group for him to go to to allow him to vent these feelings and understand better where I am at in this process. Have many family/friends attended Al-anon meetings to better understand all of this?
Thanks for letting me get this out and for your support.
-- Edited by Give me strength on Tuesday 9th of November 2010 08:05:27 AM
Klaatu said
Nov 9, 2010
Have you worked steps 1-8 with a sponsor and feel like you have a good foundation with them? I'm not saying it's not possible, but it seems like 3 months sober isn't very long to have worked the first 8 steps fearlessly, honestly, and openly. Have you talked with your sponsor about any of this. Disclosing everything you've done while drinking to a spouse or significant other can be a very dangerous thing. I know in my situation, my wife didn't want to be put on that list. That's because the amends I make to her are a daily, living amends. My way of making the amends to her is to continue to do the right thing and live like a human being should live. Remember that step 9 talks about NOT making the amends if it's going to harm them or others.
The steps are in the order their in for a reason, and experience has shown me that working them out of order not only didn't work, ultimately it made things worse for me. I know how it feels to want to let people know your sorry for your actions in the past, but we don't make amends to make ourselves feel better, we make them to right the wrongs we have caused others. Hopefully in doing so we will feel better, but that's not the primary purpose. You really need to work with your sponsor on this one, and get their ESH.
K.....
P.S. It may take me a lifetime to make all the amends I have to make, but as long as I'm willing I'm heading in the right direction.
LinBaba said
Nov 9, 2010
Klaatu wrote:
Have you worked steps 1-8 with a sponsor and feel like you have a good foundation with them? I'm not saying it's not possible, but it seems like 3 months sober isn't very long to have worked the first 8 steps fearlessly, honestly, and openly. Have you talked with your sponsor about any of this. Disclosing everything you've done while drinking to a spouse or significant other can be a very dangerous thing. I know in my situation, my wife didn't want to be put on that list. That's because the amends I make to her are a daily, living amends. My way of making the amends to her is to continue to do the right thing and live like a human being should live. Remember that step 9 talks about NOT making the amends if it's going to harm them or others.
The steps are in the order their in for a reason, and experience has shown me that working them out of order not only didn't work, ultimately it made things worse for me. I know how it feels to want to let people know your sorry for your actions in the past, but we don't make amends to make ourselves feel better, we make them to right the wrongs we have caused others. Hopefully in doing so we will feel better, but that's not the primary purpose. You really need to work with your sponsor on this one, and get their ESH.
K.....
P.S. It may take me a lifetime to make all the amends I have to make, but as long as I'm willing I'm heading in the right direction.
Quoted for perfection, I just wanted to say if you didn't get any other responses it's because this one has your answer
Work your amends with a sponsor when you get to step 9, work steps 1-8 with a sponsor to get to 9, amends aren't apologies, they are "amending" or "repairing" situations, not saying sorry for them, right now by staying sober you are making a "living amends" which is a damn fine start
bikerbill said
Nov 9, 2010
What step do you are your sponsor consider you to be working on. Making a list is at step 8. (Make the list, become willing to the list) Making amends is at step 9. They are in that order for a reason, because if you don't get a step it's because you didn't prepare right with the previous step. They are in an order because to get to step 9, (Making amends to the people on your list) you need to be willing and have made the list at step 8. See how they all build on each other?
How long did it take me to make amends? Well i haven't finished yet, because I still make living amends by staying sober and working the programme one day at a time.
Making amends isn't a half arsed apology, niether is it a means of excusing behaviour - 'I'm sorry i put you through hell, but I was really drunk at the time' just don't cut the mustard. 'But I've got an illness, an allergy etc'
I reckon that first you admit and accept that I'm an alcoholic and my life has become unmanageable, then look for help, then ask for help. (1,2,3)
Then find out what sort of person you are (4) share that with your higher power, someone else and yourself (5). then you'll know what you are and the power of your secrets will be gone because you have no secrets.
6 and 7 - the forgotten steps - lead to asking for your negative character traits to be removed. They won't be all at once or all the time, but at least you'll know that they can be, if you work for it.
From your step 4 list, you build your step 8 list. With your sponsor you prioritise this list, think how to make amends and become willing to make amends (make the list, become willing to the list) which will then bring you to step 9, making amends and it takes this long because it takes the previous steps - all of 'em - to get strong enough to have your amends tossed back at you, to discover there are things to make amends for that you had no knowledge of and to resist taking more than your share of the responsibility.
So, what step do you and your sponsor say you are on?
LinBaba said
Nov 9, 2010
Give me strength wrote:In the process of explaining AA to my husband I have mentioned this amends list. I was surprised to hear him say the other day "you talk about this amends list, I want to know when you are going to come clean and make one to me" In further talking I didnt realize--although I was aware somewhat of it--how painfully angry he still is about me lying to him during my drinking episodes. It is clear he wants me to tell him everything. I told him I am definitely not ready to do this as the shame of it all is still so painful for me, I just cannot "come clean" with all of my drinking deception. I told him that I accept the harsh fact that I have a long way to go in gaining his trust and respect back, I know I have to earn this.
The whole conversation just really strengthened my reasons for not drinking anymore...I simply cannot go back to this life of shame and deception--I just do not want that anymore. For this I am glad we had this conversation, but I just do not know when I will make my amends to him. It would be great if I could find an Al-anon group for him to go to to allow him to vent these feelings and understand better where I am at in this process. Have many family/friends attended Al-anon meetings to better understand all of this?
Thanks for letting me get this out and for your support.
PS He is not your sponsor, (your husband) and conversely you are not his, so stay out of his "recovery process" if you want him to stay out of yours, but your entire post lays clear exactly why it's best to get a sponsor and work the steps in order, him forgiving you or not forgiving is none of your business, you working on your own inventory (not his) with a sponsor is as is making the living amends of staying sober, an amends is also not us standing in front of someone and being their whipping post because of unresolved resentments, it's a repairing of a situation so we can walk tall and look people in the eye and not carry unresolved shame and guilt
in the first step we admit we are powerless over alcohol, then we learn how alcohol made us powerless over everything and actually gave everyone and everything power over us, by step 3 we start taking our power back (as we felt new power flow in) and by the end of step 9 that process is complete, step 10, continuing to take personal inventory keeps us from giving our power back to other people, and step 11 keeps our "pipeline" clear to our higher power, from whence we draw our power (an unsuspected inner resource that our more religious members call God Consciousness) so like Bill and Brian said, the steps go in order for a reason and they work in a synchronistic synergy, a web of overlapping functions if you will
going into step 9 unprepared is like bringing jumper cables to a gun fight, don't laugh, I saw someone do that once with predictable results, and it wasn't getting his car jump started
happycamper said
Nov 9, 2010
Hello Give me strength, good to see you!
I worked the steps in order , with the guidance of my sponsor and we used the big book.
I made the 9th step ammends not to gain or earn respect back from any of the ppl I had harmed in my drinking, but to gain my OWN self respect back.
The ammends are for me, not the other person.
How long did it take ?? Hmmm ... well, Id have to say that from start to finish probably about 2wks. Some of mine were via the telephone, or email, cuz I couldnt see the ppl, they live to far away. It was sorta hard to get hooked up with my kids cuz of their schedules, but I managed to make dates with them to make the ammends.
And my husband, well, that took some real prayers and courage and strength, lol. And I did NOT go into detail of all the sordid instances and circumstances of what happened when I was drinking. ( the book does not tell me to do anything like that ).
I simply , for the most part went to all of the ppl on my list and explained to them that I was sober now, and working a program of recovery and that it was the most important thing in my life at the time, and very necessary for me to tell these ppl what I was doing in order for me to move on in the process of the work/program I was doing.
I apologized, admitted my part of doing wrong and told them that I pray I never harm them again.
Thank God I am blessed with good sponsorship, cuz Her guidance really helped to keep me held together .. along with her constantly telling me to pray about it, pray about it, ask God for help. My sponsor taught me to rely on God and for this I am grateful.
Klaatu said
Nov 9, 2010
happycamper wrote:
I simply , for the most part went to all of the ppl on my list and explained to them that I was sober now, and working a program of recovery and that it was the most important thing in my life at the time, and very necessary for me to tell these ppl what I was doing in order for me to move on in the process of the work/program I was doing. I apologized, admitted my part of doing wrong and told them that I pray I never harm them again.
Just a simple question for you camper. How did that go for you? My sponsor and many others tell me time and time again NOT to disclose to other party why I'm making the amends (because I'm in AA). I made the mistake of doing it twice, and regret that I now have to go back and make amends to those people again. One of them pretty much took on the attitude that "your only doing it because AA says you have to". In other words, he didn't think the amends was sincere. He told me he would have accepted my amends IF I hadn't mentioned AA, but since I did there was no way I really meant it. I know we make amends for ourselves, but he opened my eyes and helped me see that I don't need an excuse (for me or anyone else) to make the amends. Please don't think I'm being judgmental, I'm just curious about your experiences
K.....
Aquaman said
Nov 9, 2010
I cannot improve on anythiong that's already been said.
You'll know when the time is right.
Peace,
Rob
pinkchip said
Nov 9, 2010
Give yourself a bit more time to change and to be the person you are meant to be without alcohol. When you get comfortable with that person, you can then make an ammends that means something because you will know you are a different person. You also need to thoroughly work all the other steps prior to 8 and 9 before getting to this.
typ0 said
Nov 9, 2010
is there a limit on how many we make amends to or the gravity of the harm? I haven't started on this yet but I have the question because I think I will be making amends for 20 years due to the amount of people I have harmed. Most of them I'm sure could give a crap and there are many that I won't even remember or have any clue how to contact.
LinBaba said
Nov 9, 2010
typ0 wrote:
is there a limit on how many we make amends to or the gravity of the harm? I haven't started on this yet but I have the question because I think I will be making amends for 20 years due to the amount of people I have harmed. Most of them I'm sure could give a crap and there are many that I won't even remember or have any clue how to contact.
please refer to klaatu's and bill's answer, i believe it is applicable to you as well
we cross bridges when we come to them
sufficient unto the day the evil therein
Klaatu said
Nov 9, 2010
Just to relate a little story from my not to distant past. There was one person in particular whom I was dreading making the amends to. I him hawed around, and came up with every excuse in the world not to make the amends yet. One day, happened to be a Monday, I was in the middle of painting my living room when it dawned on me... exactly RIGHT NOW was the time to make the phone call and make the amends. I learned long ago that Gods timing is perfect, so I had no choice. God gave me the strength and courage right in the middle of a roller full of paint. I put the roller down, and made the call. The person was glad to hear from me (we had lost touch due to my actions) and was very open and receptive to my apology. He even went so far as to say that he didn't feel it necessary, as he had let it go long ago. We chatted a little bit, then he told me... "you couldn't have picked a better time to call. Work has been horrible today, and I was about to go and do something stupid. Your call changed everything for me". He then proceeded to thank me for taking the time to call and admit my part in things. From that day on there was no doubt that God truly knows how to take a bad situation and turn it into a positive for all involved. So now I wait on God, and try my best to do his will for me.
I REALLY REALLY love the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous!!!
K.....
Jerry F said
Nov 10, 2010
The very first time I could clearly hear the 4th step I knew this program wasn't about anything but clearing up me and my life and I was going to have to do something about what I had done in the past what ever that was. That pronoun "ourselves" was ominous and I was fearful. I didn't have to do anything I didn't know how to do so I started watching the others in recovery and seeing how they did it and then got a sponsor who brought me to the door of action after understanding. It was years before I could approach a person I had harmed to apologize and make amends...I believe that it was near the 4-5 year mark before I got a handle on a proper way to do it with courage and trust and faith and the right picture. "....except when to do so would injure them or others" reduces the risk of bashing victims with the past and hurting them again. It was supposed to take time as I came to understand and part of the amends was to support my victims who I had left with the feeling that it had been all their fault. Sometimes they carried the pain more fully and longer than I had myself and to free them from that unjustified understanding was part of what I intended to do. My first 4 - 9th step was the first long version of what is now my 10th and the last amends I made was on Sunday morning with my spouse after my morning meeting. This last one, the error of my ways up to the apology and setting her free took 2 hours...half hour to build my resentment from bed to meeting an hour at the meeting listening to others on the subject, half hour going one on one with others in the fellowship and then the last half hour a trip back home and into the kitchen where my spouse was. She knows I did it for myself, graced me with a smile and went back to the football game. Slick all the practice keeping it simple and honest and open works. Keep working it.
angelov8 said
Nov 10, 2010
I would refer to the above mentioned posts. The "in order" part especially. I did not find it helpful to make assuptions that come with jumping the gun on "I'm sorry lists" because I hadn't developed and grown as a sober person, sufficient to understand the ninth step. I most certainly understand the dread and desire to add it up ahead of time. I saw that on the wall in my first days, unable to concetrate on people speaking and about freaked! We all don't know exactly where you're at in the steps. So anyways I'll recount my experiences. First, the 9th step, as I was told, would solidify my sobriety and my connection to the program. I read a lot of material on the subject, I must have read through the section in the BB tons of times and the 12x12 too. I came to understand the process differently by the time I was ready, much differently than when I first read the step on the poster in the meeting room in the beginning. Some of them I did quickly, with my sponsor present, at her prompting right on the phone. This was for long-distance stuff. Some took time to get to. Looking back I feel that it all happened just the way it should have. I prayed, continually checked that I was willing and approaching the amend in the right spirit, rather than just getting it over with to check it off a list. The last one took a long time. It got to where I couldn't tell if I was procrastinating due to fear or what. Well the day I put it motion I felt a pull or push. A knowing that it was the right moment, so I did it. All told, I think I worked on 9 for about 5-6 months. I had a slip one night in the middle, and that set me back, had to work sobriety and the program differently after that.
It's very freeing whether or not they are accepted. I am glad that I was prepared so that I understood that they might not be. I am absolutely grateful that I had line by line guidance in my sponsor. My sponsor also advised me not to mention AA. I did mention recovery when appropriate. Not alway with businesses. She indicated that business transactions are very different from 1939 and so I followed her suggestions. So glad I did. Living sober amends-can't forget that. Sometimes that the only way some can make the amends and this doesn't take away from it. It's important to fully understand that too.
I congratulate you on 3 months. Working the steps has changed me and my life, so much for the better.
-- Edited by angelov8 on Wednesday 10th of November 2010 02:15:43 AM
kld47 said
Nov 12, 2010
Hi
Glad you've made it this far. Keep going it only gets easier.
As to all the others who have said follow the steps and the time will come for the amends that is well and good but there are cases where it is different.
In my case I wish I had made a lot of them sooner.
A few people that I would have like to have made amends to are gone now--the only way I could make my amends to them was--write a long letter and then read it over their grave--hoping that by the grace of god their soul will forgive me.
Also have some friends that have moved away, tried to find them, or if I did left a message on an answering machine or voice-mail or e-mail if I found out they had one. Some do not care to have anything to do with me anymore--that is fine I made my attempt--maybe our paths will cross again sometime and maybe not.
What, I am getting at is if even right now you feel strongly about making an amend to someone then go ahead and try to. It may be the only time you have to do it.
Check with your sponser first. The only thing you may be able to do is write a letter or not and leave it at that.
-- Edited by kld47 on Friday 12th of November 2010 09:24:05 PM
HexZero said
November 25th
Hey, depois de um dia longo e stressante no trabalho, queria apenas relaxar e um amigo recomendou-me https://highflybet.pt. Fiquei curioso pelos bónus para jogadores portugueses e decidi experimentar algumas slots. No início perdi várias rodadas e quase desisti, mas arrisquei numa rodada maior numa slot que gosto e consegui um bom ganho que compensou todas as pequenas perdas. Foi emocionante perceber que os bónus realmente ajudam a prolongar o tempo de jogo e aumentam as chances de vitória, tornando a experiência divertida e segura.
The whole conversation just really strengthened my reasons for not drinking anymore...I simply cannot go back to this life of shame and deception--I just do not want that anymore. For this I am glad we had this conversation, but I just do not know when I will make my amends to him. It would be great if I could find an Al-anon group for him to go to to allow him to vent these feelings and understand better where I am at in this process. Have many family/friends attended Al-anon meetings to better understand all of this?
Thanks for letting me get this out and for your support.
-- Edited by Give me strength on Tuesday 9th of November 2010 08:05:27 AM
Making amends is at step 9. They are in that order for a reason, because if you don't get a step it's because you didn't prepare right with the previous step.
They are in an order because to get to step 9, (Making amends to the people on your list) you need to be willing and have made the list at step 8. See how they all build on each other?
How long did it take me to make amends? Well i haven't finished yet, because I still make living amends by staying sober and working the programme one day at a time.
Making amends isn't a half arsed apology, niether is it a means of excusing behaviour - 'I'm sorry i put you through hell, but I was really drunk at the time' just don't cut the mustard. 'But I've got an illness, an allergy etc'
I reckon that first you admit and accept that I'm an alcoholic and my life has become unmanageable, then look for help, then ask for help. (1,2,3)
Then find out what sort of person you are (4) share that with your higher power, someone else and yourself (5). then you'll know what you are and the power of your secrets will be gone because you have no secrets.
6 and 7 - the forgotten steps - lead to asking for your negative character traits to be removed. They won't be all at once or all the time, but at least you'll know that they can be, if you work for it.
From your step 4 list, you build your step 8 list. With your sponsor you prioritise this list, think how to make amends and become willing to make amends (make the list, become willing to the list) which will then bring you to step 9, making amends and it takes this long because it takes the previous steps - all of 'em - to get strong enough to have your amends tossed back at you, to discover there are things to make amends for that you had no knowledge of and to resist taking more than your share of the responsibility.
So, what step do you and your sponsor say you are on?
in the first step we admit we are powerless over alcohol, then we learn how alcohol made us powerless over everything and actually gave everyone and everything power over us, by step 3 we start taking our power back (as we felt new power flow in) and by the end of step 9 that process is complete, step 10, continuing to take personal inventory keeps us from giving our power back to other people, and step 11 keeps our "pipeline" clear to our higher power, from whence we draw our power (an unsuspected inner resource that our more religious members call God Consciousness) so like Bill and Brian said, the steps go in order for a reason and they work in a synchronistic synergy, a web of overlapping functions if you will
going into step 9 unprepared is like bringing jumper cables to a gun fight, don't laugh, I saw someone do that once with predictable results, and it wasn't getting his car jump started
The very first time I could clearly hear the 4th step I knew this program
wasn't about anything but clearing up me and my life and I was going to
have to do something about what I had done in the past what ever that
was. That pronoun "ourselves" was ominous and I was fearful. I didn't
have to do anything I didn't know how to do so I started watching the
others in recovery and seeing how they did it and then got a sponsor
who brought me to the door of action after understanding. It was years
before I could approach a person I had harmed to apologize and make
amends...I believe that it was near the 4-5 year mark before I got a
handle on a proper way to do it with courage and trust and faith and the
right picture. "....except when to do so would injure them or others"
reduces the risk of bashing victims with the past and hurting them
again. It was supposed to take time as I came to understand and part
of the amends was to support my victims who I had left with the feeling
that it had been all their fault. Sometimes they carried the pain more
fully and longer than I had myself and to free them from that unjustified
understanding was part of what I intended to do. My first 4 - 9th step
was the first long version of what is now my 10th and the last amends I
made was on Sunday morning with my spouse after my morning meeting.
This last one, the error of my ways up to the apology and setting her free
took 2 hours...half hour to build my resentment from bed to meeting an
hour at the meeting listening to others on the subject, half hour going one
on one with others in the fellowship and then the last half hour a trip back
home and into the kitchen where my spouse was. She knows I did it for
myself, graced me with a smile and went back to the football game. Slick
all the practice keeping it simple and honest and open works. Keep working
it.
I most certainly understand the dread and desire to add it up ahead of time. I saw that on the wall in my first days, unable to concetrate on people speaking and about freaked!
We all don't know exactly where you're at in the steps. So anyways I'll recount my experiences. First, the 9th step, as I was told, would solidify my sobriety and my connection to the program. I read a lot of material on the subject, I must have read through the section in the BB tons of times and the 12x12 too. I came to understand the process differently by the time I was ready, much differently than when I first read the step on the poster in the meeting room in the beginning. Some of them I did quickly, with my sponsor present, at her prompting right on the phone. This was for long-distance stuff. Some took time to get to. Looking back I feel that it all happened just the way it should have. I prayed, continually checked that I was willing and approaching the amend in the right spirit, rather than just getting it over with to check it off a list.
The last one took a long time. It got to where I couldn't tell if I was procrastinating due to fear or what. Well the day I put it motion I felt a pull or push. A knowing that it was the right moment, so I did it. All told, I think I worked on 9 for about 5-6 months. I had a slip one night in the middle, and that set me back, had to work sobriety and the program differently after that.
It's very freeing whether or not they are accepted. I am glad that I was prepared so that I understood that they might not be. I am absolutely grateful that I had line by line guidance in my sponsor. My sponsor also advised me not to mention AA. I did mention recovery when appropriate. Not alway with businesses. She indicated that business transactions are very different from 1939 and so I followed her suggestions. So glad I did. Living sober amends-can't forget that. Sometimes that the only way some can make the amends and this doesn't take away from it. It's important to fully understand that too.
I congratulate you on 3 months. Working the steps has changed me and my life, so much for the better.
-- Edited by angelov8 on Wednesday 10th of November 2010 02:15:43 AM
Glad you've made it this far. Keep going it only gets easier.
As to all the others who have said follow the steps and the time will come for the amends that is well and good but there are cases where it is different.
In my case I wish I had made a lot of them sooner.
A few people that I would have like to have made amends to are gone now--the only way I could make my amends to them was--write a long letter and then read it over their grave--hoping that by the grace of god their soul will forgive me.
Also have some friends that have moved away, tried to find them, or if I did left a message on an answering machine or voice-mail or e-mail if I found out they had one. Some do not care to have anything to do with me anymore--that is fine I made my attempt--maybe our paths will cross again sometime and maybe not.
What, I am getting at is if even right now you feel strongly about making an amend to someone then go ahead and try to. It may be the only time you have to do it.
Check with your sponser first. The only thing you may be able to do is write a letter or not and leave it at that.
-- Edited by kld47 on Friday 12th of November 2010 09:24:05 PM
Hey, depois de um dia longo e stressante no trabalho, queria apenas relaxar e um amigo recomendou-me https://highflybet.pt. Fiquei curioso pelos bónus para jogadores portugueses e decidi experimentar algumas slots. No início perdi várias rodadas e quase desisti, mas arrisquei numa rodada maior numa slot que gosto e consegui um bom ganho que compensou todas as pequenas perdas. Foi emocionante perceber que os bónus realmente ajudam a prolongar o tempo de jogo e aumentam as chances de vitória, tornando a experiência divertida e segura.