A friend of mine wrote this, and I have seen him post it a few times, I was reading it tonight and I thought I would pass it along, I would post the link but it is a private AA forum, similar to a "closed" meeting, I can provide the link in response to PMs to alcoholics:
Abstinence is the leading cause of relapse. Sounds kind of comical when heard for the first time. Almost like a contradiction of terms. In theory, abstinence is supposed to PREVENT relapse. How can it be RESPONSIBLE for relapse?
It turns out that the recovery process cannot be done in one simple phase. Not unlike getting a car or truck rolling along it takes more than one gear. Abstinence is comparable to first gear in a motor vehicle. It is the best and sometimes the only way to get a massive vehicle in motion but not unlike a car going down the highway, being stuck in first gear is destructive. At some point the cars engine will blow apart from too much stress.
Rehab programs seldom talk about this matter because it is simply not their job to talk about long-term recovery strategies. Their goal is typically one of getting the subject to reach some short-term goal that can be achieved and measured within a short time frame, typically 30 to 90 days.
So what is the equivalent of second gear in the recovery process? Principles to live by. Specifically rules to live by that can be used to day in and day out without overloading ones psychic engine. Some of these principles can be summed up in simple to grasp slogans like; one-day-at-a-time, easy-does-it and first-things-first. These are more or less psychological tricks and tips that can be used in times of stress.
There is more to recovery however than just psychology. There is an even higher set of principles that can be viewed as the equivalent of over-drive in an automobile. That is spiritual instead of psychological principles.
Spiritual principles are harder to learn than psychological principles because some of them are hard to grasp at first. In fact, many of them are closer to paradoxs than logic. That is why it is best to leave them for last in the learning process.
The fundamental spiritual principles are not too bad to deal with like honesty, open-mindedness and willingness but some of the deeper principles like humility and serenity are beyond the grasp of those new to the recovery process.
Perhaps the most esoteric spiritual principle to grasp is true humility. A word often confused with humiliation. The easiest way to distinguish between the two is to remember that humiliation leads to fear, guilt and shame where humility leads to insight into new truth. Another important difference between them is that humiliation is 100% pain where humility is 50% pain and 50% gain. As body-builders would say no pain, no gain.
All those who are suffering from an addiction have a serious lack of insight. Humility, more than any other tool, can circumvent this problem and provide new and lasting paths to the truth about themselves, their disease and their potential to change. Think of spiritual principles as the over-drive that allows an auto to cruise for countless hours of stress-free progress on the life-long journey to recovery.
One Of The responses Also caught my eye, I think it is important:
I don't have a clue of what it is like to be non-alcoholic. Kind of like I don't have a clue of what it is like to be a woman.
But I do know what it is like to be utterly confused as to what the true nature of my malady is. To be sold the idea by the professional community that I'm a drug addict because I used drugs for a period of time. To be told that I'm alcoholic because I got in trouble from drinking alcohol. To be told that I'm alcoholic because I was maladjusted to life and came from a broken home.
I also know what it is like to finally realize what is wrong with me, not because someone told me what was wrong with me, but because another alcoholic sitting across a table from me told me what was wrong with him. It sunk from my head to my heart and I cried when I finally knew what was really wrong with me- it's called alcoholism.
That can't happen when a non-alcoholic hard drinker tries to help an alcoholic like I see happening quite often in AA. That hard drinker has the opposite experience that I do-he can't have a clue of what it is like to be alcoholic. The line between he & I isn't fine at all. He doesn't experience what I experience when I put booze in my system. He'll stop when he gets his fill. And given a sufficient reason, he'll stop drinking altogether or moderate.
"Why do hard drinkers stay in A.A. if they find out they aren't real alky? Have they not been put to the test? Were they not given the dignity to find out for themselves?
No perhaps they haven't been put to the test. Because all too often we assume that just because a person is in the room that they are in the right place. I was never put to the test in ten years of going to AA meetings until this time at about six months away from my last drink when someone asked me why I though I was an alcoholic. I don't hear that question asked in AA much. So, no many of them are not given the dignity of finding out for themselves because most don't know the right questions to ask or are too concerned with not making someone uncomfortable, thus causing discomfort to themselves.
They stay in AA because they like the social outlet it provides. To them we are support group. But the real alcoholic needs more than a support group because he is beyond human aid.
I believe there is another component, the spiritual component, and it has to be in place as well.
"Whether such a person can quit upon a non-spiritual basis depends upon the extent to which he has already lost the power to choose whether he will drink or not."
There is a woman around here who used to baffle me and piss me off when she talked in meetings. She always says that the fellowship is what comes in between her and drink and that she loves AA. She says she has never cracked the book and has never saw the need to. She appears contented and happy with her life.
One day I was in a meeting where she was. A big part of my story is how I was restless, irritable, and discontent with a drink, about how I always felt outside of life, different, and incomplete, and how I was looking for something. Then I found booze and it did something about that in a big way. Then I experienced the phenomenon of craving, and eventually booze stopped working and I couldn't stop no matter what. And that is basically what I shared in that meeting that day.
When this woman shared, she said something that caught my attention. She said that she couldn't relate to my story about how I was restless, discontent, irritable, and incomplete without a drink. And I got it. She had some trouble drinking. Enough trouble to cause her to want to stop, so she came to AA and stopped. And her life got better and she liked it here and decided to stay. So she is not like me. She quit on a non-spiritual basis.
When I got sober, my life did not get better. I hated AA and wanted to get the hell out of here, but didn't have any other place to go. And I needed a spiritual answer to that problem.
So today, I've made peace with this lady. She's a nice lady and is happy and loves AA as much as I do. She just doesn't need AA the way I need AA.
In order to be the real alcoholic, I think you've to be powerless physically, mentally, and spiritually.
Are you a "real alcoholic"?
If so, Why?
Do you relate to the Doctors Opinion? Bill's Story? More about Alcoholism?
Has anyone ever asked you why you thought you were an alcoholic?
Have you ever asked a Newcomer why they thought they were an alcoholic?
Do you think it is important to help a newcomer identify whether or not they are an alcoholic or just a heavy drinker, or do you think it's better just to help them stay sober and tell them "keep coming back" and let them find out on their own?
Can someone drink every day for 20 years, be severely addicted to alcohol, even need a doctors supervision to quit, yet not be an alcoholic?
-- Edited by AGO on Saturday 24th of April 2010 01:01:26 AM
Rob84 said
Apr 24, 2010
Very profound is the notion we never use the term "abstinece" used within AA, We only have a daily reprieve based on the maintenance of our spritual condition.
Abstinence for me refers to being dry from alchohol, but for myself and most, only by treating the disease can we have continued long term happy soberiety.
The treatment of course is the 12 steps and spiritual program of action.
I'm a real alchoholic based on the definition in the BBook, yes I know I qualify.
I have asked new people if they thought they where Alcoholic, not to drill them, just to lead them to the info that can help them figure it out for themselves.
I was always told "you" where the only one who could determine if "you" are alky.
If they don't feel they are alky or are unsure, it is very hard to sponsor them or for them to take the 1st step, and they will never dive deeply into the stepwork.
I know probably some non-alky drinkers going through tough periods or mostly emotional problems find thier way to the rooms, it's great if they find help in the rooms-"Love and tolarance is our code".
God has a plan for everyone, nothing can mess up the great thing that we have, after 25 years I have learned that people are either going to stay sober or they aren't
Our Tradition states "The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stay sober"
The 12 and 12 states that "You are a member of AA if you say you are".
Live and let live.
Rob
jonijoni1 said
Apr 25, 2010
Love it!!!!!! (and I am not jumping up on furniture yelling this time, either....LOL)
StPeteDean said
Apr 25, 2010
great post Larry, thanks for all the insightful threads.
LinBabaAgo-go said
Jan 28, 2012
Larry????
Fyne Spirit said
Jan 28, 2012
The advantage of the 12 step visit as opposed to sending someone to a meeting is that there is the chance for the newcomer to ask questions and to go into some detail about alcoholism and their own circumstances. This was my experience. When I first called I didn't know I would have to stop drinking and had no desire to, so on the face of it I didn't qualify for membership. But a few hours with Richard C, my 12 stepper, and we had established without a doubt that I was suffering from alcoholism and AA was the place for me . Being convinced that I was alcoholic, Richard only then took me to a meeting and introduced me to the fellowship. He kept an eye on me for a week or two and was always available on the phone. Among other things he made sure I got to meet some of the "winners" and before long I had found a sponsor. The rest is history. Insightful way to put things, psychological principles to spiritual principles. The post covers so much ground. But it is so true that for the real alcoholic, meetings alone will not work. Nor will psychology and group therapy. We must take the steps and learn to live by spiritual principles, the only long term solution. God bless, Mike H.
Tasha said
Jan 28, 2012
THanks for sharing that!
StPeteDean said
Jan 28, 2012
LinBabaAgo-go wrote:
Larry????
A senior moment, or did I comment in the wrong thread?
LinBabaAgo-go said
Jan 29, 2012
StPeteDean wrote:
LinBabaAgo-go wrote:
Larry????
A senior moment, or did I comment in the wrong thread?
Well we gonna hafta have a battle of the brains here because I haven't the slightest clue....not that that's unusual in any sense
March is almost upon us...Tahoe?
rrib said
Jan 29, 2012
All this thinking makes my head hurt!
TwelveSteps said
Jan 29, 2012
That was great -- thank you.
GG
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Aug 29, 2024
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Abstinence is the leading cause of relapse. Sounds kind of comical when heard for the first time. Almost like a contradiction of terms. In theory, abstinence is supposed to PREVENT relapse. How can it be RESPONSIBLE for relapse?
It turns out that the recovery process cannot be done in one simple phase. Not unlike getting a car or truck rolling along it takes more than one gear. Abstinence is comparable to first gear in a motor vehicle. It is the best and sometimes the only way to get a massive vehicle in motion but not unlike a car going down the highway, being stuck in first gear is destructive. At some point the cars engine will blow apart from too much stress.
Rehab programs seldom talk about this matter because it is simply not their job to talk about long-term recovery strategies. Their goal is typically one of getting the subject to reach some short-term goal that can be achieved and measured within a short time frame,
typically 30 to 90 days.
So what is the equivalent of second gear in the recovery process? Principles to live by. Specifically rules to live by that can be used to day in and day out without overloading ones psychic engine. Some of these principles can be summed up in simple to grasp slogans like; one-day-at-a-time, easy-does-it and first-things-first. These are more or less psychological tricks and tips that can be used in times of stress.
There is more to recovery however than just psychology. There is an even higher set of principles that can be viewed as the equivalent of over-drive in an automobile. That is spiritual instead of psychological principles.
Spiritual principles are harder to learn than psychological principles because some of them are hard to grasp at first. In fact, many of them are closer to paradoxs than logic. That is why it is best to leave them for last in the learning process.
The fundamental spiritual principles are not too bad to deal with like honesty, open-mindedness and willingness but some of the deeper principles like humility and serenity are beyond the grasp of those new to the recovery process.
Perhaps the most esoteric spiritual principle to grasp is true humility. A word often confused with humiliation. The easiest way to distinguish between the two is to remember that humiliation leads to fear, guilt and shame where humility leads to insight into new truth. Another important difference between them is that humiliation is 100% pain where humility is 50% pain and 50% gain. As body-builders would say no pain, no gain.
All those who are suffering from an addiction have a serious lack of insight. Humility, more than any other tool, can circumvent this problem and provide new and lasting paths to the truth about themselves, their disease and their potential to change. Think of spiritual principles as the over-drive that allows an auto to cruise for countless hours of stress-free progress on the life-long journey to recovery.One Of The responses Also caught my eye, I think it is important:
I don't have a clue of what it is like to be non-alcoholic. Kind of like I don't have a clue of what it is like to be a woman.
But I do know what it is like to be utterly confused as to what the true nature of my malady is. To be sold the idea by the professional community that I'm a drug addict because I used drugs for a period of time. To be told that I'm alcoholic because I got in trouble from drinking alcohol. To be told that I'm alcoholic because I was maladjusted to life and came from a broken home.
I also know what it is like to finally realize what is wrong with me, not because someone told me what was wrong with me, but because another alcoholic sitting across a table from me told me what was wrong with him. It sunk from my head to my heart and I cried when I finally knew what was really wrong with me- it's called alcoholism.
That can't happen when a non-alcoholic hard drinker tries to help an alcoholic like I see happening quite often in AA. That hard drinker has the opposite experience that I do-he can't have a clue of what it is like to be alcoholic. The line between he & I isn't fine at all. He doesn't experience what I experience when I put booze in my system. He'll stop when he gets his fill. And given a sufficient reason, he'll stop drinking altogether or moderate.
"Why do hard drinkers stay in A.A. if they find out they aren't real alky? Have they not been put to the test? Were they not given the dignity to find out for themselves?
No perhaps they haven't been put to the test. Because all too often we assume that just because a person is in the room that they are in the right place. I was never put to the test in ten years of going to AA meetings until this time at about six months away from my last drink when someone asked me why I though I was an alcoholic. I don't hear that question asked in AA much. So, no many of them are not given the dignity of finding out for themselves because most don't know the right questions to ask or are too concerned with not making someone uncomfortable, thus causing discomfort to themselves.
They stay in AA because they like the social outlet it provides. To them we are support group. But the real alcoholic needs more than a support group because he is beyond human aid.
I believe there is another component, the spiritual component, and it has to be in place as well.
"Whether such a person can quit upon a non-spiritual basis depends upon the extent to which he has already lost the power to choose whether he will drink or not."
There is a woman around here who used to baffle me and piss me off when she talked in meetings. She always says that the fellowship is what comes in between her and drink and that she loves AA. She says she has never cracked the book and has never saw the need to. She appears contented and happy with her life.
One day I was in a meeting where she was. A big part of my story is how I was restless, irritable, and discontent with a drink, about how I always felt outside of life, different, and incomplete, and how I was looking for something. Then I found booze and it did something about that in a big way. Then I experienced the phenomenon of craving, and eventually booze stopped working and I couldn't stop no matter what. And that is basically what I shared in that meeting that day.
When this woman shared, she said something that caught my attention. She said that she couldn't relate to my story about how I was restless, discontent, irritable, and incomplete without a drink. And I got it. She had some trouble drinking. Enough trouble to cause her to want to stop, so she came to AA and stopped. And her life got better and she liked it here and decided to stay. So she is not like me. She quit on a non-spiritual basis.
When I got sober, my life did not get better. I hated AA and wanted to get the hell out of here, but didn't have any other place to go. And I needed a spiritual answer to that problem.
So today, I've made peace with this lady. She's a nice lady and is happy and loves AA as much as I do. She just doesn't need AA the way I need AA.
In order to be the real alcoholic, I think you've to be powerless physically, mentally, and spiritually.
Are you a "real alcoholic"?If so, Why?
Do you relate to the Doctors Opinion? Bill's Story? More about Alcoholism?
Has anyone ever asked you why you thought you were an alcoholic?
Have you ever asked a Newcomer why they thought they were an alcoholic?
Do you think it is important to help a newcomer identify whether or not they are an alcoholic or just a heavy drinker, or do you think it's better just to help them stay sober and tell them "keep coming back" and let them find out on their own?
Can someone drink every day for 20 years, be severely addicted to alcohol, even need a doctors supervision to quit, yet not be an alcoholic?
-- Edited by AGO on Saturday 24th of April 2010 01:01:26 AM
Larry????
Insightful way to put things, psychological principles to spiritual principles. The post covers so much ground. But it is so true that for the real alcoholic, meetings alone will not work. Nor will psychology and group therapy. We must take the steps and learn to live by spiritual principles, the only long term solution.
God bless,
Mike H.
A senior moment, or did I comment in the wrong thread?
Well we gonna hafta have a battle of the brains here because I haven't the slightest clue....not that that's unusual in any sense
March is almost upon us...Tahoe?
All this thinking makes my head hurt!
GG
I recently purchased a futon covers from Mamma Mia Covers, and it's exactly what I needed! My futon was starting to look a bit shabby, but this slipcover has given it a whole new life. The material is high-quality and very soft, and it fits perfectly without any awkward bunching. I also love that its easy to take off and wash, which is a lifesaver with kids and pets. Their collection has so many stylish options, it's hard to pick just one! Super happy with my purchase.