I have a problem with my sponcer. We have different higher powers and it bothers me a lot. I feel like we are not spiritually connected at all. Should I get a new sponcer?
-- Edited by Jocelion at 14:47, 2005-02-12
-- Edited by Jocelion at 14:48, 2005-02-12
Cabbageheadchris said
Feb 12, 2005
Don't worry about it, everyone has a different higher power. All the same thing, but interpreted by different people in different ways.
Example: The simbol of my higher power is a 300 year old human skull from China.
Strange but true, and yes I do talk to it.
Live and let live, it would be a boring world if we were all the same.
Have a great day.
Chris.
ellen said
Feb 12, 2005
i understand what chris has said and there are no worries unless that it is importiant to you. however a sponsor is someone who helps you through the steps and helps you in this life called sobriety. not one you necessarly have to meditate with. you should not need to combine the two in the relationship with a sponsor. have the openmindedness to have relationships with others that share your interrests. and enjoy. hope that this helps. have a great evening.
amanda2u2 said
Feb 12, 2005
I think that the relationship with a sponsor is important enough that there should be a compatibility. Although I don't care who most people's HP is,,, for my sponsor I need the commonness of similar spiritualities. I would get a different sponsor. We had a group that was a special 'candlelight spirituality' group, and the leader was an eastern style self-made spiritual leader. That is fine for him,,, but what he came up with is very different than my spirituality. There is another AA I know who is beginning a hybrid Buddhism and is into 'nothingness',,, and is a negative thinker. I respect where he is at, but he would not make a good sponsor for me,,, while we do have discussions and find we disagree on even the basics. He is free to get into nothingness but I am going into something very positive, so we need some spiritual space between us. Not everyone who is in the same denomination thinks the same way I do either, so it is not that I need someone from the same church... but... I need someone whose thinking is compatible with mine.
love in recovery,
Rick said
Feb 12, 2005
I wouldn't loose any sleep over it. Take it slow. I guess I would start looking for a new sponsor slowly, if you choose to look. You need to be comfortable with your sponsor. I call my higher power GOD and so does the BIG BOOK. Personally I don't understand all these different higher powers. I love page 164 of the Big Book, ( last 2 paragraphs) One thing it says is ABANDON YOURSELF TO GOD AS YOU UNDERSTAND GOD. I guess it really depends what your sponsor is saying. KEEP IT SIMPLE Id kick it around to a few friends, and then decide. There's alot of different opinions out there. I don't know anyboby thats seen God, but two things for sure I'm not God and neither is my sponsor. So I wouldn't let your's play God or tell you who God is. As for the Question. Should I get a new sponsor???? That's totally up to you. You certainly don't need to thrown off track by this.
Good Luck
pjb235 said
Feb 12, 2005
For what it's worth - My first sponsor believed in a Native American Indian HP & I'm a practicing Catholic. It did NOT work out well. My sponsor's understanding of God is closer to mine & that makes our relationship much more compatible. Pray on it - He'll guide you. - Pat B
Nic said
Feb 13, 2005
Those that bother us the most, have the most to teach us.
Some really annoying, but pretty smart dude said that to me once...
Rick said
Feb 13, 2005
My Higher Power - The Light Bulb By Clarence H. Snyder
(Clarence got sober in 1938, was sponsored by Dr. Bob, & started AA group #3 in Cleveland. In the first few years of his recovery Clarence had a higher recovery rate than Bill W. & Dr. Bob COMBINED. His story, "Home Brewmeister", can be found on page 297 of the 3rd Edition Big Book.)
In their sincere & honest attempt to maintain a "hands-off" policy regarding fellow members' religious beliefs & perhaps sensitivities, our founding fathers exercised gentle wisdom & proffered spiritual freedom. No one, it was rightly thought, should be permitted to impose his or her own religious concepts & beliefs upon any other member of the fellowship. This area was much too important to the prospective recoveree to be tampered with by mortal man. The very life of the prospect depends, ultimately, upon his or her "personal relationship" with a "Power greater than themselves." The notion was valid in the Program's earlier days - AND IT STILL IS! In no way, shape or form, however, was the idea conceived to avoid guiding our beloved newcomer along the path of spiritual progress. Quite the contrary, our whole purpose as recovered alcoholics, was & is to help the next person achieve sobriety. If that person is a real alcoholic his only hope is God. So in its most basic & simplest terms our only real purpose is to help the still-suffering alcoholic to find God. A loving God, a healing God is the alcoholic's only real hope. This is no easy task. A vast array of difficulties presents themselves to thwart the new person on his journey. The foremost adversary, of course, is the illness itself. It seems that many, many alcoholics have a very fierce, emotionally charged resistance to accepting any dependence upon a Power, which, to them, may seem an abstract & remotely distant concept. This internal resistance is most effectively broken down by the potential recoveree's initial desperation. (It seems such a shame that today's AA actually encourages the newcomer to avoid reaping the blessings of that desperation.) If intense enough & deep enough, this emotional "bottom" will be the very propellant the prospect needs to thrust him into the recovery process offered by AA through its 12 Steps.
Another stumbling block, which many people who are new to the program are currently encountering, is us! We seem to be full of fear regarding the responsibility we have been given in the area of spiritual guidance. We shirk this responsibility by evasiveness or by the direct sidestepping of the issue by such statements as, "It's God as you understand Him, & it's up to you to come to your own conclusions." So the newcomer is left to his own devices. He is expected to arrive, alone & unguided, at a relationship with his Creator. One of the most powerful & hope-filled statements to be found in the entire text of Alcoholics Anonymous can be found on page 25. "The great fact is just this, & nothing less: That we have had deep & effective spiritual experiences which have revolutionized our whole attitude toward life, toward our fellows & toward God's universe. The central fact of our lives today is the absolute certainty that our Creator has entered into our hearts & lives in a way that is indeed miraculous. He has commenced to accomplish those things for us which we could never do for ourselves." Are we, today, so far removed from our founder's results of our recovery program that these words are nothing more than a "nice thought" or an exaggeration due to artificially elated emotions? If so, we "obviously cannot transmit something we don't have." We cannot share awareness we don't have. Cannot give guidance we have never gotten. We cannot share a vision of God we have never seen. Our lack, thereby, becomes the newcomer's & he may die because of it! Our resistance becomes his license. In his liquor befogged mind he does not seek & experience God but begins to "create" one. It's no wonder his dryness becomes so barren that in a short while he returns to drink. His "Higher Power" was a light bulb! (No joke. We have heard this comment voiced more than once & not only by a newcomer!) Or perhaps this power greater than himself was a chair, or a wall, or even a mere mortal sponsor. A quick glance at the top of page 93 of the "Big Book" makes instantly clear a very important qualification in the concept of "...as you understand Him," & that is: "He can choose any conception he likes, PROVIDED IT MAKES SENSE TO HIM." Power greater than himself - a light bulb? A simple flick of a switch turns off that power. A wall? Not so powerful when confronted with a bulldozer. A chair? An axe can make quick kindling of that higher power. A sponsor then? If he fails to perfect his spiritual life, his old foe alcohol is sure to reclaim him. So he won't do very well as a greater power. How about a whole group? Possibly for someone else, but not for us. If one person is powerless over alcohol, & another, we would have a group of people who are powerless over alcohol. We do not have a group who ARE POWERFUL over alcohol. Yet they do not drink! They have gained access to something more powerful than alcohol. It was never intended that phrases such as "higher power," "power greater than ourselves," or "as we understood Him" were created as an enabling device to justify our membership's continued avoidance of a connection with our Creator. Page 46 of the AA book says, "we found that as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice & express even a willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced to get results, even though it was impossible for any of us to fully define or comprehend that Power which is God." Again, "...that Power, which is God." Our founders apparently held no reservations, whatsoever, with Who was dealing with them. Perhaps, we would be well advised to think twice before we attempt any ourselves. Alcoholics Anonymous is not allied with any religion, as we well know. But it is allied with God, "for our very lives as ex-problem drinkers depend on it." It is allied with spirituality, for despite what our preamble states, AA is not a "fellowship," it is a spiritual way of life. It is our most earnest desire that no one reading this feel that we are trying to impose any presentation of God of His nature on anyone. Our real hope is that a reader may be jolted from a position of complacency or spiritual evasion & get about the business of recovery.
amanda2u2 said
Feb 13, 2005
Thanks very much for that post Rick... very interesting. I have a little trouble reading the posts that have very large letters though. I would like to have a copy of what you wrote... is it the story of Clarence from the Big Book? or is it a pamphlet?
love in recovery,
amanda
Jocelion said
Feb 13, 2005
thank you everyone.
Rick said
Feb 13, 2005
Amanda
Not sure where it came from. A friend e-mailed it to me a while back. If u want a copy. Copy and paste it into a new program, then change the font size to whatever u like. If u don't know how, I can e-mail it to you in whatever size u like. His story, "Home Brewmeister", can be found on page 297 of the 2Nd or 3rd Edition of the Big Book. This is not the story. I can try to find out where it came from.
-- Edited by Jocelion at 14:47, 2005-02-12
-- Edited by Jocelion at 14:48, 2005-02-12
Don't worry about it, everyone has a different higher power. All the same thing, but interpreted by different people in different ways.
Example: The simbol of my higher power is a 300 year old human skull from China.
Strange but true, and yes I do talk to it.
Live and let live, it would be a boring world if we were all the same.
Have a great day.
Chris.
I think that the relationship with a sponsor is important enough that there should be a compatibility. Although I don't care who most people's HP is,,, for my sponsor I need the commonness of similar spiritualities. I would get a different sponsor. We had a group that was a special 'candlelight spirituality' group, and the leader was an eastern style self-made spiritual leader. That is fine for him,,, but what he came up with is very different than my spirituality. There is another AA I know who is beginning a hybrid Buddhism and is into 'nothingness',,, and is a negative thinker. I respect where he is at, but he would not make a good sponsor for me,,, while we do have discussions and find we disagree on even the basics. He is free to get into nothingness but I am going into something very positive, so we need some spiritual space between us. Not everyone who is in the same denomination thinks the same way I do either, so it is not that I need someone from the same church... but... I need someone whose thinking is compatible with mine.
love in recovery,
I wouldn't loose any sleep over it. Take it slow. I guess I would start looking for a new sponsor slowly, if you choose to look. You need to be comfortable with your sponsor. I call my higher power GOD and so does the BIG BOOK. Personally I don't understand all these different higher powers. I love page 164 of the Big Book, ( last 2 paragraphs) One thing it says is ABANDON YOURSELF TO GOD AS YOU UNDERSTAND GOD. I guess it really depends what your sponsor is saying. KEEP IT SIMPLE Id kick it around to a few friends, and then decide. There's alot of different opinions out there. I don't know anyboby thats seen God, but two things for sure I'm not God and neither is my sponsor. So I wouldn't let your's play God or tell you who God is. As for the Question. Should I get a new sponsor???? That's totally up to you. You certainly don't need to thrown off track by this.
Good Luck
Those that bother us the most, have the most to teach us.
Some really annoying, but pretty smart dude said that to me once...
My Higher Power - The Light Bulb
By Clarence H. Snyder
(Clarence got sober in 1938, was sponsored by Dr. Bob, & started AA
group #3 in Cleveland. In the first few years of his recovery Clarence
had a higher recovery rate than Bill W. & Dr. Bob COMBINED. His story,
"Home Brewmeister", can be found on page 297 of the 3rd Edition Big
Book.)
In their sincere & honest attempt to maintain a "hands-off" policy
regarding fellow members' religious beliefs & perhaps sensitivities, our
founding fathers exercised gentle wisdom & proffered spiritual freedom.
No one, it was rightly thought, should be permitted to impose his or her
own religious concepts & beliefs upon any other member of the
fellowship. This area was much too important to the prospective
recoveree to be tampered with by mortal man. The very life of the
prospect depends, ultimately, upon his or her "personal relationship"
with a "Power greater than themselves." The notion was valid in the
Program's earlier days - AND IT STILL IS!
In no way, shape or form, however, was the idea conceived to avoid
guiding our beloved newcomer along the path of spiritual progress.
Quite the contrary, our whole purpose as recovered alcoholics, was & is
to help the next person achieve sobriety. If that person is a real
alcoholic his only hope is God. So in its most basic & simplest terms
our only real purpose is to help the still-suffering alcoholic to find
God. A loving God, a healing God is the alcoholic's only real hope.
This is no easy task. A vast array of difficulties presents themselves
to thwart the new person on his journey. The foremost adversary, of
course, is the illness itself. It seems that many, many alcoholics have
a very fierce, emotionally charged resistance to accepting any
dependence upon a Power, which, to them, may seem an abstract & remotely
distant concept.
This internal resistance is most effectively broken down by the
potential recoveree's initial desperation. (It seems such a shame that
today's AA actually encourages the newcomer to avoid reaping the
blessings of that desperation.) If intense enough & deep enough, this
emotional "bottom" will be the very propellant the prospect needs to
thrust him into the recovery process offered by AA through its 12 Steps.
Another stumbling block, which many people who are new to the program
are currently encountering, is us! We seem to be full of fear regarding
the responsibility we have been given in the area of spiritual guidance.
We shirk this responsibility by evasiveness or by the direct
sidestepping of the issue by such statements as, "It's God as you
understand Him, & it's up to you to come to your own conclusions." So
the newcomer is left to his own devices. He is expected to arrive,
alone & unguided, at a relationship with his Creator.
One of the most powerful & hope-filled statements to be found in the
entire text of Alcoholics Anonymous can be found on page 25. "The great
fact is just this, & nothing less: That we have had deep & effective
spiritual experiences which have revolutionized our whole attitude
toward life, toward our fellows & toward God's universe. The central
fact of our lives today is the absolute certainty that our Creator has
entered into our hearts & lives in a way that is indeed miraculous. He
has commenced to accomplish those things for us which we could never do
for ourselves." Are we, today, so far removed from our founder's
results of our recovery program that these words are nothing more than a
"nice thought" or an exaggeration due to artificially elated emotions?
If so, we "obviously cannot transmit something we don't have." We
cannot share awareness we don't have. Cannot give guidance we have
never gotten. We cannot share a vision of God we have never seen. Our
lack, thereby, becomes the newcomer's & he may die because of it!
Our resistance becomes his license. In his liquor befogged mind he does
not seek & experience God but begins to "create" one. It's no wonder
his dryness becomes so barren that in a short while he returns to drink.
His "Higher Power" was a light bulb! (No joke. We have heard this
comment voiced more than once & not only by a newcomer!) Or perhaps
this power greater than himself was a chair, or a wall, or even a mere
mortal sponsor. A quick glance at the top of page 93 of the "Big Book"
makes instantly clear a very important qualification in the concept of
"...as you understand Him," & that is: "He can choose any conception he
likes, PROVIDED IT MAKES SENSE TO HIM."
Power greater than himself - a light bulb? A simple flick of a switch
turns off that power. A wall? Not so powerful when confronted with a
bulldozer. A chair? An axe can make quick kindling of that higher
power. A sponsor then? If he fails to perfect his spiritual life, his
old foe alcohol is sure to reclaim him. So he won't do very well as a
greater power. How about a whole group? Possibly for someone else, but
not for us. If one person is powerless over alcohol, & another, we
would have a group of people who are powerless over alcohol. We do not
have a group who ARE POWERFUL over alcohol. Yet they do not drink!
They have gained access to something more powerful than alcohol.
It was never intended that phrases such as "higher power," "power
greater than ourselves," or "as we understood Him" were created as an
enabling device to justify our membership's continued avoidance of a
connection with our Creator. Page 46 of the AA book says, "we found
that as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice & express even a
willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced
to get results, even though it was impossible for any of us to fully
define or comprehend that Power which is God." Again, "...that Power,
which is God." Our founders apparently held no reservations,
whatsoever, with Who was dealing with them. Perhaps, we would be well
advised to think twice before we attempt any ourselves. Alcoholics
Anonymous is not allied with any religion, as we well know. But it is
allied with God, "for our very lives as ex-problem drinkers depend on
it." It is allied with spirituality, for despite what our preamble
states, AA is not a "fellowship," it is a spiritual way of life.
It is our most earnest desire that no one reading this feel that we are
trying to impose any presentation of God of His nature on anyone. Our
real hope is that a reader may be jolted from a position of complacency
or spiritual evasion & get about the business of recovery.
Thanks very much for that post Rick... very interesting. I have a little trouble reading the posts that have very large letters though. I would like to have a copy of what you wrote... is it the story of Clarence from the Big Book? or is it a pamphlet?
love in recovery,
amanda
thank you everyone.
Amanda
Not sure where it came from. A friend e-mailed it to me a while back. If u want a copy. Copy and paste it into a new program, then change the font size to whatever u like. If u don't know how, I can e-mail it to you in whatever size u like. His story, "Home Brewmeister", can be found on page 297 of the 2Nd or 3rd Edition of the Big Book. This is not the story. I can try to find out where it came from.
Hope that helps
Rick