Received this from a friend.........is she right? Been around the block once or twice myself. Never thought of it this way before myself but now that she has pointed it out......well there is some truth in what she says in my experiences. I really don't think she can put all men in the same category do you? Any comments? Would really like to hear what the men have to say as well as the women. Happy New Year everyone.
My friend wrote:
It has been my experience that men are always seeking perfection and women are always blaming ourselves for falling short of it (because we are human and therefore, not perfect). Give yourself a break today. I wonder why we expect perfection in ourselves, as women, but not in our often wayward and far from perfect men? Ever notice guys ask us to marry them (media hype) and we are HONORED and ECSTATIC? but men think of marriage as the end of their freedom, and all kinds of other negative connotations. They act like by asking US to marry THEM, THEY are doing US a FAVOR!!! That WE need THEM. Well, in actuality, the way i see it, men these days are all mama's boys who need us (strong independent women with career jobs and financial independence) a lot more than we need them (mama's boys who STILL live under their parents' roof at age 40something and don't even have a bank account). That's just bee MY experience.
Just Rambling
Phil said
Dec 31, 2004
Whew!! I see a lot of, off based stuff in this one. A lot of negative, resentment, judging and drawing conclusions.
My Granny used to say that if you buy 2 bushels of apples, that there will be a few bad ones in each barrell. That doesnt mean that all of them are bad and bruised.
I meet a lot of people today, that have not been successful with relationships, and have become deep seated man haters, or women haters. Its pretty sad stuff.
I see relationships fail, because 2 people dont learn the tools to communicate, comitt and fix. Its easier to walk away and blame.
I see relationships fail because of emotional immaturities, insecurities, and fear.
I see relationships fail because a person hasta to learn to live within themselves, and with themselves first, before even attempting to be with someone else.
I see relationships fail because baggage from the past has never been dealt with--commonly called "The Wreckage of the Past."
If I ask someone to marry me, it is because I wish to share my life with that person--independently and together--with love, and respect. I commit myself to that relationship, and expect the same in return. Not needy. Not controlling. Just a mutual understanding of a "Being with, And Being there for" each other.
It takes two emotionally healthy people to make a relationship last. It takes 2 people that want it to work and will go to any lengths to make it work., and if it isnt working? What can we do to make it better?
OR we just put all the BLAME on the other and walk away.
My opinion only, here.:) It took me 55 years to grow up, and GET some of this stuff.
I do know one thing. I should carry a mirror with me at all times.:)
elizabeth said
Dec 31, 2004
thankyou for your words phil. this lady is in AA but i don't really believe she is sober. she just today mentioned something about smoking pot a month ago. is she sober if she still smokes? she also mentioned about taking some perscription drug her doctor gave her that makes her high. if a drug is mind altering isn't that still indulging? i am confused. i would like to help my friend but i don't have the tools. what does it mean to be sober?
Nic said
Jan 1, 2005
Hi Elizabeth,
I have a friend that talks like that. She is very much a feminist, having grown up in Ireland and witnessed the oppression of generations of people, particularly women. I understand her outlook, even though it is not my way. It is true that for much of time, women have been treated as less than men.
Equality is not something we can just ask for. Nor is it something we can demand. It is something we offer, with respect to whoever we are interacting with. The moment we consider someone else different to us, we establish an unequal relationship. I have no desire to exist as either superior or inferior to any other human being. I find it much easier to recognise the human being (or heart) in men, women or children when I deal with people, so I look past the feminist in my friend, to that.
My idea of equality, means that I can't ask another to do something I wouldn't do myself. Some interpret that as feminist, but I have no desire to be a feminist. I'm happy just trying to keep it all fair... (equal). I was attempting to change the blades on the mower yesterday, and as much as I tried, I simply couldn't shift the bolt. I asked a male mate to help. He respectfully, loosened the bolt and left me to it. I thanked him for that.
The day previously, I was changing the plugs and went away to wash out the air filter on my bike. When I came back, a male mate had replaced the plugs and then reached for the filter. I was immediately in mental conflict. Should I just thank him for doing me a FAVOUR? Or did I have a right to object to him fiddling with my bike without permission? I said nothing and walked away simply trying to work it out... surely if I did anything to his bike, he wouldn't like it? Later he suggested I was ungrateful. Obviously he wanted praise and acknowledgement... So it had never really been done as a gift to me at all, had it? I did thank him, but then said quite firmly... "If you ever mess with my bike again, without FIRST showing me the respect of ownership, I will run you over with it. Do you understand?"
He laughed. He is kinda used to me, I guess. He is the guy that taught my kids to sew and cook. Because he is a much more enthusiastic and creative cook than me, and he can do those tricky invisible stitches, that I've never got the hang of. Had I tried teaching them, they would have learned what I know about sewing and cooking... not much.
Sometimes things get lost in tradition. Traditionally things were NOT equal. If we (women) really want to be treated as equals, we have to both offer and honour equality. To me, that means taking my turn at paying for dinner, opening doors when guys have their hands full, helping them carry their shopping stopping when a guy's car breaks down on the road and offering assistance (even if its just to ring someone), carrying the 'heavy thing' (just because we can)...simple things... that for too long have been expected of men, but not of women. Acknowledging equality..saying thankyou when they take a turn at the dishes, clean the loo or cook a meal... that kind of thing... is important too, I think.
I honestly think women have an active responsiblity to equality. Afterall, we more often than not, raise the boys. We allow them to grow up in a society that DOES at times promote some of the things your friend mentioned. If we don't stand up and offer equality, what hope do we have of raising boys or girls with any experience of it? My brother grew up thinking the only thing he had to do in the house was mow the yard and take the bins out!!! We all know there's a lot more to running a house than that. When he finally got out in the world at 22, he was absolutely hopeless! He had loving parents, but he was simply not equipped for life on his own...so he went from one day care worker/cleaner/stripper to the next... just trying to get his needs met. He didn't need a heart committment. He still had that with his Mum. But he needed a whole lot more in terms of living... and unfortunately until he realised he could learn and was capable, he kept expecting it of women.
I agree with your sentiments Phil, I just like to think that we live in a progressive world... sadly, it has taken a lot longer than 50 years for boys to learn that a marriage proposal is no longer a contract over property (as it once was). It is nice to think marriage can be simply an expression of love, rather than a solution to need, but personally, for me, I'm not prepared to chance it...not yet. All of our major structures are still ultimately maintained by a male majority (Check out the head honky's in banks, education, religion, politics, courts, policing, etc.) Men still pull rank, and sit at the top. It is my opinion, that it is only when they experience true equality, that they are willing to honour it. Very few are willing to step aside to let a women do the job, or even try to.
Recognising this, can lead to active equality. Feminists get kinda stuck in the injustice of it all, I think.
Let's hope Elizabeths friend moves through those thoughts and into action, and begins acting in a way that encourages equality...not as one who stands as superior through default.
Received this from a friend.........is she right? Been around the block once or twice myself. Never thought of it this way before myself but now that she has pointed it out......well there is some truth in what she says in my experiences. I really don't think she can put all men in the same category do you? Any comments? Would really like to hear what the men have to say as well as the women. Happy New Year everyone.
My friend wrote:
It has been my experience that men are always seeking perfection and women are always blaming ourselves for falling short of it (because we are human and therefore, not perfect). Give yourself a break today. I wonder why we expect perfection in ourselves, as women, but not in our often wayward and far from perfect men? Ever notice guys ask us to marry them (media hype) and we are HONORED and ECSTATIC? but men think of marriage as the end of their freedom, and all kinds of other negative connotations. They act like by asking US to marry THEM, THEY are doing US a FAVOR!!! That WE need THEM. Well, in actuality, the way i see it, men these days are all mama's boys who need us (strong independent women with career jobs and financial independence) a lot more than we need them (mama's boys who STILL live under their parents' roof at age 40something and don't even have a bank account). That's just bee MY experience.
Just RamblingHi Elizabeth,
I have a friend that talks like that. She is very much a feminist, having grown up in Ireland and witnessed the oppression of generations of people, particularly women. I understand her outlook, even though it is not my way. It is true that for much of time, women have been treated as less than men.
Equality is not something we can just ask for. Nor is it something we can demand. It is something we offer, with respect to whoever we are interacting with. The moment we consider someone else different to us, we establish an unequal relationship. I have no desire to exist as either superior or inferior to any other human being. I find it much easier to recognise the human being (or heart) in men, women or children when I deal with people, so I look past the feminist in my friend, to that.
My idea of equality, means that I can't ask another to do something I wouldn't do myself. Some interpret that as feminist, but I have no desire to be a feminist. I'm happy just trying to keep it all fair... (equal). I was attempting to change the blades on the mower yesterday, and as much as I tried, I simply couldn't shift the bolt. I asked a male mate to help. He respectfully, loosened the bolt and left me to it. I thanked him for that.
The day previously, I was changing the plugs and went away to wash out the air filter on my bike. When I came back, a male mate had replaced the plugs and then reached for the filter. I was immediately in mental conflict. Should I just thank him for doing me a FAVOUR? Or did I have a right to object to him fiddling with my bike without permission? I said nothing and walked away simply trying to work it out... surely if I did anything to his bike, he wouldn't like it? Later he suggested I was ungrateful. Obviously he wanted praise and acknowledgement... So it had never really been done as a gift to me at all, had it? I did thank him, but then said quite firmly... "If you ever mess with my bike again, without FIRST showing me the respect of ownership, I will run you over with it. Do you understand?"
He laughed. He is kinda used to me, I guess. He is the guy that taught my kids to sew and cook. Because he is a much more enthusiastic and creative cook than me, and he can do those tricky invisible stitches, that I've never got the hang of. Had I tried teaching them, they would have learned what I know about sewing and cooking... not much.
Sometimes things get lost in tradition. Traditionally things were NOT equal. If we (women) really want to be treated as equals, we have to both offer and honour equality. To me, that means taking my turn at paying for dinner, opening doors when guys have their hands full, helping them carry their shopping stopping when a guy's car breaks down on the road and offering assistance (even if its just to ring someone), carrying the 'heavy thing' (just because we can)...simple things... that for too long have been expected of men, but not of women. Acknowledging equality..saying thankyou when they take a turn at the dishes, clean the loo or cook a meal... that kind of thing... is important too, I think.
I honestly think women have an active responsiblity to equality. Afterall, we more often than not, raise the boys. We allow them to grow up in a society that DOES at times promote some of the things your friend mentioned. If we don't stand up and offer equality, what hope do we have of raising boys or girls with any experience of it? My brother grew up thinking the only thing he had to do in the house was mow the yard and take the bins out!!! We all know there's a lot more to running a house than that. When he finally got out in the world at 22, he was absolutely hopeless! He had loving parents, but he was simply not equipped for life on his own...so he went from one day care worker/cleaner/stripper to the next... just trying to get his needs met. He didn't need a heart committment. He still had that with his Mum. But he needed a whole lot more in terms of living... and unfortunately until he realised he could learn and was capable, he kept expecting it of women.
I agree with your sentiments Phil, I just like to think that we live in a progressive world... sadly, it has taken a lot longer than 50 years for boys to learn that a marriage proposal is no longer a contract over property (as it once was). It is nice to think marriage can be simply an expression of love, rather than a solution to need, but personally, for me, I'm not prepared to chance it...not yet. All of our major structures are still ultimately maintained by a male majority (Check out the head honky's in banks, education, religion, politics, courts, policing, etc.) Men still pull rank, and sit at the top. It is my opinion, that it is only when they experience true equality, that they are willing to honour it. Very few are willing to step aside to let a women do the job, or even try to.
Recognising this, can lead to active equality. Feminists get kinda stuck in the injustice of it all, I think.
Let's hope Elizabeths friend moves through those thoughts and into action, and begins acting in a way that encourages equality...not as one who stands as superior through default.