this is fine for her but many of us have believed that perhaps we weren't alcoholics and had to suffer the consequences. an alcoholic like me will clutch onto any potential glimmer of hope that we can drink normally. tina may be the exception to the rule in this case, but most people who drink after a long period of sobriety just confirm what they once believed. i drank after 9 years when life was going well, still alcoholic...miserable relatively short
experiment
I have seen to many relapsed alcoholics who tried to come back, but failed to grasp and develop a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty.
I've taken a few, over the years, to AA meetings (carpooling). Some of the stuff they say in the car, before and after the meeting, simply points to 'missing the plot of recovery/sobriety'.
I am in shock by it all, because I knew them how they were before their relapse - a model 12th Stepper and sponsor.
It's got to be brain damage. I cannot understand it in any other way. By the way, they all relapsed again and I have not yet heard of them. So far, those who have died died drunk.
My sponsor once said, and it rattled me at the time, "Alcoholism is like a train hurtling to a DEAD end. When we stop drinking, we are let off on a railway station. When we relapse we climb back onto the train. But nobody can tell you if the station you just left was the last one or not."
I am the same as Pappy, I have a history that says I am alcoholism.
__________________
"... unless this person can experience an entire psychic change there is very little hope of recovery." Dr. Silkworth. (Alcoholics Anonymous, 3rd Ed. p.xxix)
Interesting reading..... I was skeptical as I was reading it and like another poster has done on this board many times, was looking to "catch" the writer in her own words. Then I realized that it was pointless for me to do that and a waste of my time.
I will say that it sounds like she did benefit from being in the program. And in her words....
"But the promises of the program absolutely came true in my life. I did well in school. I learned how to be responsible. I found a career, a husband, and a life. I was humbled I'd been given a second chance. I was a horrible kid and a nasty alcoholic, but by the grace of God and the program of Alcoholics Anonymous I was sober one day at a time. I was living with a chronic disease that wanted to kill me but I was truly living for the first time. And as long as I kept close to the program, I'd be okay."
Although she says she was never and is not an alcoholic, which only she can determine that, it does sound like by being around loving and caring people (which she so greatly needed to be), working the Steps (which I have often thought I wish I had worked some kind of "Step" program long before I had a drinking problem because I think it would have helped change my thinking) and learning to have a Higher Power she could trust in rather than people who let her down--for ex. her parents) that she changed her life for the better. It doesn't sound like she wasted her time and turned what could have been a tragic ending for her into a happier one.
-- Edited by leavetherest on Friday 8th of January 2016 08:58:12 AM
I have often said, in the meet'n rooms, that I was glad that I had become an alcoholic, because I would never have worked the AA steps had I not been one ... It was work'n these steps that gave me the the moral and spiritual judgement to live a good, satisfying, life ...
Were it not for be'n alcoholic, I'd have most certainly been dead years ago ... but this program worked when absolutely noth'n else would ... I discovered God in my life through AA and have found 'peace and serenity' in living ... help'n others ... The AA program saved not only my life, but my very soul ... of that I have zero doubt ...
On my own, I found it absolutely impossible to not drink ... I just could not, not drink ... and I very nearly died before I came to know the truth by go'n to so very many meet'ns ...
Thank you to God and all those who have been a part of my journey, liberating me from the bondage of alcoholism ... and freeing my very soul ... I am so very grateful (and so is my family) ...
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
I didn't watch the video, or read the article, or whatever it is. Alcoholic or not, however I became the alcohol dependent drinker that I became, doesn't matter. I have a feeling that if I were to ever pick up again, it will be all over. I'll wind up dead, either quickly, or slowly. Knowing, or believing that, is enough to keep me from picking up that 1st drink. I ain't ready to go yet. No way. I want to live for a few years sober...then, before I die, I can make an informed assessment of whether life is better with, or without alcohol. But, after only a year and a half sober, I already know.
So, whether I'm a real alkie or not, whether I could actually do controlled drinking or not, doesn't matter. I don't need that shit anymore. And I don't desire it.
But I know I've got to be careful to never let my guard down. No matter how much I believe the desire has been lifted, I know it could come back, especially if I become too complacent.
Im a much better person now, too, and AA literature and meetings and the program, among other things, have helped me become that.
I'm a lot less annoying these days. (if you can't imagine me being more annoying, just imagine adding alcohol to the Baba. Look in the dictionary for the word "annoying". There's a picture of me, drunk.) (Wikipedia actually has a short video clip)
Well, folks seem to feel the need to reaffirm that THEY ARE ALCOHOLICS, after reading that Tina Dupuy is not. I don't see that connection, at least not clearly. Whether I am an alcoholic has nothing to do with her.
The story was about Tina and whether she was an alcoholic. Considering that she had only drunk alcohol "maybe six times" before going to AA for 24 years, it is unlikely that she is/was. Alcoholics drink alcohol. Excessively. For a while. More than a half dozen times. So, how does a non-alcoholic become a "member" of AA? That's also what the story is about--how Tina excelled at every aspect of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. Except for being qualified as a member by being an alkie.
One of the questions that should come to mind from reading the story is: how often does this happen?
Also: how many other ways can people be in "AA"--but not really be alcoholics?
I think this article could have an impact on those that are on the fence about whether or not they ARE alcoholic or not ... and this one fact disturbs me a bit cause maybe they are go'n to AA now and after read'n this article, they may start to doubt if they're alcoholic or not ... and this COULD make them second guess themselves and their decision to go to AA ... ??? ... I have no idea what others think, I just know after read'n the article, I do not fit with this young lady's scenario(although I learned from the article) ... I AM an alcoholic for damn sure, after try'n some 'controlled' drink'n many times and fail'n miserably ...
I am right where I belong ...
Pappy
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
.....and it took her 4 hours to drink one glass of wine? Wow, I gulped my wine and barely finished the glass when I was reaching for the bottle again. My ex used to tell me, "slow down, savour it, hold it in your mouth and taste the flavor....What's that all about? Then he wanted to do the pouring...he used to hold the glasses up after he poured to make sure they were "even" because he knew if he didn't, he wouldn't get his share.
The story was about Tina and whether she was an alcoholic. Considering that she had only drunk alcohol "maybe six times" before going to AA for 24 years, it is unlikely that she is/was. Alcoholics drink alcohol. Excessively. For a while. More than a half dozen times. So, how does a non-alcoholic become a "member" of AA? That's also what the story is about--how Tina excelled at every aspect of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. Except for being qualified as a member by being an alkie.
One of the questions that should come to mind from reading the story is: how often does this happen?
Also: how many other ways can people be in "AA"--but not really be alcoholics?
I can think of a few.
Well at least no harm came to her. In fact as alcohol is in the same class of carcinogen as cigarettes, she can offset the loss of twenty years pleasurable drinking against the equivalent of about 5 years of smoking.
Don't know if we can say this will not harm others however. There may be one or two of us who may be tempted to try and follow her example. That would be a tragedy, but certainly not her fault.
It happened because the induction process was wrong. She was diagnosed by a counsellor working from different criteria. She was not 12 stepped and qualified as the big book suggests on page 92. There was no mention of the two qualifying factors for AA alcoholic diagnosis, the loss of control and/or choice, ie the phenomenon of craving which never occurs in the average temperate drinker, or the obsession of the mind.
She came in about the same time I did. I was lucky to be 12 stepped and qualified at the start. That didn't happen for her, nor countless others. As she said they were dropping them off at AA by the bus load. What did AA do? Mostly they seemed to have looked the other way, relying on the poster version of tradition three, and ignoring the full version and tradition five, along with the proven experience that you cannot offer AA membership to a non alcoholic.
Today probably the majority of new members have their first contact with AA by going to a meeting. They might have gone by court order, or been recommended by a therapist or doctor, but they have never been 12 stepped and are not in a position to know whether or not AA is right for them.
There is another fellowship in my home town that tells its members that they must also go to AA and identify as alcoholic. I don't know how they work a succesful program based on such dishonesty, but also, no one 12 steps them. There has been a lot of harm done by these folks.
The mis-diagnosis is very common due to the wider range of symptoms taken into account in clinical diagnosis. Fitting patterns, anxiety, history, depression, etc are part and parcel of alcoholism, but also of many other problems. We often hear alcoholics talk about how they were mis-diagnosed and medicated for some mental illness or other, when their real problem is alcoholism. This ladiy's story is confirmation that the opposite can occur. She was misdiagnosed with alcoholism.
I believe it will keep happening for as long as we try to substitute meetings for 12 step calls, and we hang on the the politically correct idea that we should not qualify someone as alcoholic before taking them to a meeting. The true meaning of sponsorship is to take responsibility for the induction of a new member into both the AA fellowship and the AA way of life, which includes making sure they are alcoholic in the first place.
In this context that trite saying "nobody comes to AA by mistake" can be seen for the nonsense it is. Turning up at an AA meeting, even with a desire to stop drinking, does not automatically mean you are alcoholic.
-- Edited by Fyne Spirit on Sunday 10th of January 2016 05:03:05 PM
The story was about Tina and whether she was an alcoholic. Considering that she had only drunk alcohol "maybe six times" before going to AA for 24 years, it is unlikely that she is/was. Alcoholics drink alcohol. Excessively. For a while. More than a half dozen times. So, how does a non-alcoholic become a "member" of AA? That's also what the story is about--how Tina excelled at every aspect of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. Except for being qualified as a member by being an alkie.
One of the questions that should come to mind from reading the story is: how often does this happen?
Also: how many other ways can people be in "AA"--but not really be alcoholics?
I can think of a few.
Well at least no harm came to her. In fact as alcohol is in the same class of carcinogen as cigarettes, she can offset the loss of twenty years pleasurable drinking against the equivalent of about 5 years of smoking.
Don't know if we can say this will not harm others however. There may be one or two of us who may be tempted to try and follow her example. That would be a tragedy, but certainly not her fault.
It happened because the induction process was wrong. She was diagnosed by a counsellor working from different criteria. She was not 12 stepped and qualified as the big book suggests on page 92. There was no mention of the two qualifying factors for AA alcoholic diagnosis, the loss of control and/or choice, ie the phenomenon of craving which never occurs in the average temperate drinker, or the obsession of the mind.
She came in about the same time I did. I was lucky to be 12 stepped and qualified at the start. That didn't happen for her, nor countless others. As she said they were dropping them off at AA by the bus load. What did AA do? Mostly they seemed to have looked the other way, relying on the poster version of tradition three, and ignoring the full version and tradition five, along with the proven experience that you cannot offer AA membership to a non alcoholic.
Today probably the majority of new members have their first contact with AA by going to a meeting. They might have gone by court order, or been recommended by a therapist or doctor, but they have never been 12 stepped and are not in a position to know whether or not AA is right for them.
There is another fellowship in my home town that tells its members that they must also go to AA and identify as alcoholic. I don't know how they work a succesful program based on such dishonesty, but also, no one 12 steps them. There has been a lot of harm done by these folks.
The mis-diagnosis is very common due to the wider range of symptoms taken into account in clinical diagnosis. Fitting patterns, anxiety, history, depression, etc are part and parcel of alcoholism, but also of many other problems. We often hear alcoholics talk about how they were mis-diagnosed and medicated for some mental illness or other, when their real problem is alcoholism. This ladiy's story is confirmation that the opposite can occur. She was misdiagnosed with alcoholism.
I believe it will keep happening for as long as we try to substitute meetings for 12 step calls, and we hang on the the politically correct idea that we should not qualify someone as alcoholic before taking them to a meeting. The true meaning of sponsorship is to take responsibility for the induction of a new member into both the AA fellowship and the AA way of life, which includes making sure they are alcoholic in the first place.
In this context that trite saying "nobody comes to AA by mistake" can be seen for the nonsense it is. Turning up at an AA meeting, even with a desire to stop drinking, does not automatically mean you are alcoholic.
-- Edited by Fyne Spirit on Sunday 10th of January 2016 05:03:05 PM
I think Tina was probably harmed in that treatment for her REAL problems of child abuse was delayed. She ensconced herself in a societal environment where, for emotional survival objectives, she became proficient at mimicking of ideal behavior to gain acceptance and love. But it was based on a fraud...she had no business in AA.
I agree with almost all your other points. They are well considered. Seems to me that AA is being seriously jeopardized by the diagnostic and preemption approaches of the therapeutic/medical and court systems. Those systems use headcounts and disposition categorization to measure their own performance--without questioning the fundamental nature or viability of their referrals, especially the compulsory ones.
There are 1.5 annual DUI arrests in the U.S. A good portion of those arrested end up being counted as AA "members" because they attend meetings for a while. But a lot, probably most, are not alcoholic. Therefore, they should not be welcome in AA. A lot of people are sent to AA. Not just the DUI cases.
But AA really is not designed to cope with this strategic problem. It cannot even see it. Even if it could see it, it is too weak to do anything. That weakness is by design and it has served AA members very well for the first 50 years or so. But no longer, I'd say.
AA in 2016 isn't a growing, advancing system. There are several reasons for that. You've covered some of them in your thoughtful analysis, FS.
I'm glad AA is still around, though. Its how I got sober. Its how I've stayed sober. It still works for me.
-- Edited by Tanin on Saturday 23rd of January 2016 10:07:57 AM
