I know I sure have. It took me a few "bottoms" and each time the one after was always worse than the one before. I am lucky to still be alive.
Two newbies posted on here over the last few days. I am hoping both are still sober. When folks come on here I get hopeful for them that they will stay sober and choose to live. When they post one or only a few times, I get concerned about them...I think maybe they were going through a remorseful time and got it out of their system by posting. I cannot do anything except pray for them. One of them posted about having an issue with alcohol since age 14 and on the profile page "haven't hit bottom yet". In my prayers for that person I know what to pray, that it doesn't take the kind of bottom that deals with a shovel and 6' of dirt before that person gets help. If I could just figure out a way to reach this person and let them know what a better life they can have if they choose sobriety I would do it.
I'm not God. All I can do is pray. Hopefully, they are staying sober. I don't want this disease to claim more people.
As you have eluded to, I know my next bottom is on 6 feet away ... down ... my last rehab involved my liver having shut down, I was violently ill, was turning jaundice, I had to use a wheelchair and/or walker for the first four or five days ... blood pressure was as high as the staff had ever seen and the nurses were asking each other why the hell had this guy here not stroked out yet ??? ... (one other rehab before this one, I had checked myself in with an alcohol level of .38 ... and I'm NOT proud that I drove to check myself in) ... can anyone say ... I.N.S.A.N.I.T.Y. ????????? ... I was a 'poster-child' for the word ...
So my bottom??? ... like I said, if I were to have a 'next' one, it will be my last ... of that, I am quite sure ... for me, the AA way of life is life itself ... without living it, I die ...
As for others that you see here then not, that's as normal as seeing a new-comer at a meeting to go on to never ever see them again ... I'm not saying you ever get used to it, but that's the reality of it all ... some are ready to get well, some must follow the desire to 'experiment' to the end ... sad indeed ... I pray that they come to their senses too ... for me, I was running out of chances ... I knew I'd never survive one last hurrah so to speak ... to my innermost self, I KNEW I could never drink again ... and AA showed me how ... AA'rs here and at the meetings showed me what they did and I followed them like a 4 week old puppy ...
All we can do is do our best to make the new-comers welcome and pray they come back ... that's it ...
Love ya and God Bless, Pappy
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
I think I caught myself right before hitting the bottom. If I had kept drinking, I probably would have lost everything within a couple of more months. My business, my money, but, even worse, my mind. I think in the back of my mind, I knew that if I lost everything, then I would pick myself up, get sober, and start from scratch. But I didn't want to have to do that. I knew I had to quit, and I just figured that it was better to do it before everything was gone.
Different people have different bottoms, Pappys bottom was near close to death. Other people stop before it gets that bad. Some people don't stop, and they wind up dead. For me, any further down, and I would have been borrowing money from people, wearing out my friendships, and then turning to the streets, cause I would have had no place to go. I was scared. I didn't want to be a homeless person on the street, begging for money. And I kinda saw that coming, if I didn't do something about my problem. Thank God I did. Cause not only was I able to keep what little I have, but my life is way better now, too.
As for people who come here and then disappear, I guess we'll never know. Some of them, seems to me, haven't hit their bottom yet, and they're gonna keep trying their "I'll just cut down" and "easier" solutions. Like I've said before, I used to read this forum all the time, probably almost every day, for around 5 years, before I finally decided it was time. So, maybe when it's their time, they'll come back, like I did. Hopefully, its not too late.
Great response post there Baba ... shows a great deal of insight for your future had you not joined us ... and I wanted to mention that had it not been for a very 'understanding wife', who realized I had a 'fatal disease', I'd not made it through all this ... she helped make my recovery possible ... (but I had pushed the limit soooo far, that divorce was eminent, meaning loosing everything like Baba said ... and finding a home under a bridge or six feet under ...) ...
Love you guys and God Bless, Pappy
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
I am really close to loosing everything. I have been stumbling since the new year.
This weekend I think it was strike 3 for me. I haven't talked to my sponsor in 2 weeks and I am ashamed.
When I went to the Big Meeting in NYC, each speaker spoke of picking up, stopping, picking up again...so
I feel of that person had the same difficulty getting sober like I am-and now they've been sober 15-20 years
I can do it.
Hi PhotoT, ... I may not be reading this right, but the way I took it, was that you saw this as an 'green lite' to drink again just cause others said they had, and survived ... WRONG ... many that see relapse as a 'normal' thing to do, never make it back ... I admit, I've relapsed a few times myself and I very nearly died ... I know I don't have another one in me ... If I drink again, I will die ... of that, I am quite certain ...
AND try not think about having or getting 15 years of sobriety ... that'll kill you too ... we must concentrate on 'one day at a time' ... I can go one day without a drink so I chose not to drink 'today' ... I may get drunk next week or next year, but just not today ... that's the only way you can get those 'years' you speak of ... one frick'n day at a time ...
Staying in contact with your sponsor is very important ... without that, a person starts to think for themselves again ... before their ready for that ... so it's dangerous to be out there on your own ,,,
Love ya and God Bless, Pappy
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
No, I know there is relapse and it happens a lot. I do not see it as a green light. I beat myself up when I go out for a few days
but I remind myself I'm sick and I have to work my program.
I have my morning meeting tomorrow and I will contact my sponsor (I also think my recent behavior is going to cause the s**t to hit the fan)
No, I know there is relapse and it happens a lot. I do not see it as a green light. I beat myself up when I go out for a few days but I remind myself I'm sick and I have to work my program. I have my morning meeting tomorrow and I will contact my sponsor (I also think my recent behavior is going to cause the s**t to hit the fan)
If you're referring to going out and having a drink without contacting your sponsor 1st, then you may get some flack from that ... but remember we're only human, and we can, and do, make mistakes ... we are very weak when we first come to AA and it takes time to build the 'conscious contact' with God, or our 'higher power' ... we seek progress, not perfection ... so they should cut you some slack and just remind you to call them, or any other member first ... you should have a list of phone numbers of members on you at all times for just this reason ...
AND the main thing here is to NOT be too hard on yourself ... alcohol is cunning, baffling, and powerful ... we just have to seek to get better, never worse cause our disease is ALWAYS FATAL ...
Love ya and God Bless,
Pappy
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
No, I know there is relapse and it happens a lot. I do not see it as a green light. I beat myself up when I go out for a few days but I remind myself I'm sick and I have to work my program. I have my morning meeting tomorrow and I will contact my sponsor (I also think my recent behavior is going to cause the s**t to hit the fan)
Great thread. There is no way of knowing if we have hit our last bottom. I know people with more than 20 years who hit a spiritual bottom well into sobriety. We just can't know.
What I do know is that I hit a bottom where I was ready to go to any lengths to establish a relationship with a God I had no understanding of, and to have a life changing spiritual experience. And that was the thing. I was beyond human aid. For acoholics like me meetings and a sponsor are not enough. Like PhotothingNYC I was in a position where no human power could provide a defence, I was without defence against the first drink.
Among the human defences are things like go to meetings, ring someone if you feel like drinking, talk to your sponsor. These things are great for temporary sobriety but they will always fail in the end because alcoholics of my type must have something more than human power to keep us sober. I have observed that those who feel like drinking and ring their sponsor almost never drink (and were never going to), while those who drink almost never ring their sponsor first. There is no cause and effect here, the sponsor does not have the power to keep us sober. What usually happens is that it does not occur to us to ring anyone because the obsession is back and the last thing we want to do is talk to someone who wants to stop us drinking. All our human defences including calling our sponsor, have failed.
There is a saying about taking the steps to recover, not the other way around. The steps are the path to a spiritual experience that will bring about recovery from alcoholism. I started the steps before I stopped drinking permanently. I worked them at a good pace with the sole idea of finding this Higher Power (not not drinking one day at a time) and as I put the third into action with the fourth, drinking seemed to leave my consciousness. Within a few weeks I was into step nine and my life changed for ever. The obsession had gone and has never returned.
Back in Dr Bob's day, Sister Ignatia made an observation that the success rates of groups (in treatment) with no relapsers present was higher than those that had relapsers. The worst thing about minimising the seriousness of relapse i.e. don't worry about it, don't be too hard on your self, the door swings both ways etc is it sends the message to the newcomer that relapse is part of recovery and therefore ok. My little alcoholic brain will pick that up damn quick.
A relapse is a disaster and nobody has an unlimited supply of relapses and recoveries. There always comes a time when there are no recoveries left. Relapse is a signal. We have no defence and we have not done what we need to do to get a 24/7 defence. We better get busy finding that Higher Power through the steps, or we will wake up one day and realize there are no more recoveries left in us.
"Back in Dr Bob's day, Sister Ignatia made an observation that the success rates of groups (in treatment) with no relapsers present was higher than those that had relapsers. The worst thing about minimising the seriousness of relapse i.e. don't worry about it, don't be too hard on your self, the door swings both ways etc is it sends the message to the newcomer that relapse is part of recovery and therefore ok. My little alcoholic brain will pick that up damn quick."
I totally agree with this. If I had the attitude of "well, I might relapse, and if I do, it ain't the end of the world", Im definitely more likely to pick up. Part of what keeps me sober, is knowing that the next time I drink, it could be my last. It comes down to how serious you are about wanting to live, and not drinking. Like I've said in previous posts, I see alcohol for what it really is now: poison. And would I drink just a little bit of cynide? No. Why? It would kill me. Because it's poisonous. And so is alcohol. The only difference is that cynide will kill me instantly, whereas alcohol would take a little longer to do me in.
I've seen people relapse, and it's happened to me before when I was trying to abstain, and "slipped". People will say "well, don't beat yourself up over it. Just try again". But that is a bad mentality, because it leaves the door cracked open just enough for the next "slip". In the back of your mind, when alcohol is calling, it's easy to convince yourself that even though you're about to "slip" up, it will be ok, because you've done it before, and caught yourself before things got too bad, and you can just go back on the wagon again. It's better to just keep that door completely shut and locked. There is no "slipping up" again. It's not an option. And like you said, Fyne, if I were to hang around people who were going back and forth, my little alcoholic brain would say "see, you can drink. People won't be hard on you, and don't be so hard on yourself if you do drink". That is bad thinking. The last thing I need is to start thinking that it ain't no big deal if I "slip". Bullshit. It is a big deal. Bigger than any other deal I can think of.
But it all boils down to what you said. "The obsession has gone, and it has never returned". That is the goal, that is what we need to have happen if we're going to stay sober for the rest of our lives. The desire must be removed, the obsession lifted. Because willpower will eventually fail us. It always has before. If you don't have the desire or obsession, you won't need willpower. It doesn't take any willpower to not do something that you don't desire.
Great post, Fyne. I couldn't agree with you any more.
Hi Pappy,
Sorry I have been on my trip and not able to get back to you. I have never made those things. Glad you found someone who has.
PhotothingNYC,
If you are still on here.....glad you are back and hopefully, you will not have to lose everything before you realize that staying on the alcohol for an alcoholic is a lose/lose thing for us. Sobriety is the only win/win there is for us.
Part of what keeps me sober, is knowing that the next time I drink, it could be my last. It comes down to how serious you are about wanting to live, and not drinking. Like I've said in previous posts, I see alcohol for what it really is now: poison. And would I drink just a little bit of cynide? No. Why? It would kill me. Because it's poisonous. And so is alcohol. The only difference is that cynide will kill me instantly, whereas alcohol would take a little longer to do me in.
Does the same psychology apply to smoking cigarettes, BL?
I don't know about others but......I have never heard of cigarettes landing someone in jail (unless they get caught stealing them); changing someone's thought process so they drive under the influence of only cigs and end up killing people. Nor have I heard of cigs changing anyone's--including my own--thinking to the point where I am depressed/hate myself and others.
For me, the "poison" of alcohol is not only the effect it has on my body my mind as well.
Yeah, HO, youre right. And yes, Tanin, it does apply to cigarettes, too. But, just like Hope said, the effects of smoking are a lot more subtle (till you get cancer). It doesn't land you in jail, or wreck your life entirely. It's harder to quit them, because they don't make your life as miserable as alcohol does, with the depression and anxiety and all the other mental anguish.
But I need to start applying the 12 step principles to the quit smoking thing, along with some other things I've learned to quit drinking. Sometimes, I think it would be easier to quit them, if they actually were making my everyday life miserable, like alcohol does. It's kind of hard to quit something that isn't really creating a mess of your life, with everyday problems and whatnot. Smoking waits till the very end to cause you stress and depression and anxiety, when you've found out you're gonna die.
Im going to give it another shot later this week. I'm going to be in a stressless situation for the next couple of months, so, I think I can do it. And, I'll be around non-smokers. That helps a lot in the first week or 2.
It's friggen hard, Hope. I think it has a lot to do with our our indulgent, alcoholic personalities. I've quit many times before, once for like 6 years. Maybe even 7 or 8, I don't remember. Why I start again, idk. I have to lose the desire, like I did with alcohol, for good.
It's friggen hard, Hope. I think it has a lot to do with our our indulgent, alcoholic personalities. I've quit many times before, once for like 6 years. Maybe even 7 or 8, I don't remember. Why I start again, idk. I have to lose the desire, like I did with alcohol, for good.
Hey Baba....that'd be me (the indulgence especially). I'll tell you one thing...I'm losing some of the weight I had put on after I quit. Man, I went crazy eating. Was starved all the time.....I got several boxes of Weight Watchers cereal. They had a really good sale on it and I was surprised the stuff didn't taste like cardboard.(Well, some of that may have been because I had my taste buds back after quitting smoking) Anyway, one day, I ate almost a whole box of the stuff. I had also had 4 ice cream sandwiches that day. That wasn't all. I ate other things as well. Just the cereal and ice cream sandwiches I remember. I went up two sizes in two months!!!!
So I am back to not having as much of an appetite again. Not a good way to lose weight, I know.
Baba.....I have to say I got tickled at your abbreviated name for me above. Took me a couple of minutes...I thought "ok...what did I do to that guy to make him call me "that"???? Then I figured it out. (sometimes slowly with me--ha!)
Thanks for the book tip, again.
-- Edited by hopefulone on Tuesday 15th of September 2015 07:09:30 PM
I have to have a sense of humor, I have been living with myself for too many years not to...ha! And I am uncomfortable being around uptight folks, myself. Especially if I say a little joke to try and loosen them up and they just stand there looking at me stone faced. So much for that. Look at folks, like Pappy, and what he has been and is still going through and he still has his sense of humor...(above)... what an inspiration!
HO
-- Edited by hopefulone on Thursday 17th of September 2015 12:47:37 AM
Thanks for the vote of confidence HO ... (I guess since you posted 'HO', then it's okay for me to use it, LOL) ...
And, thanks to everyone who's kept me in their prayers ... It may be wishful think'n on my part, but I believe the worst of this pain is starting to subside ... I want to believe that anyway! ... love you guys ...
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
I am so glad that you are not in as much pain as you were and hope that you will continue to heal.
And yes, Pappy, feel free to call me "HO" anytime. I laughed when I read your first sentence in your last post. Laughter is so wonderful, isn't it?
A funny story (at least to me now)...years ago, while still in my teens, I was playing tennis with my best friend. I beat her and she called me the "b" word (not sure how much I can get away with on here)....well, I jokingly called her the first name I could come back with and that was the unabbreviated real "W" word. Her face went from already mad to enraged, she slammed her racket on the court and I thought she was going to come over the net to get to me. I explained that I was joking, and reminded her that she started it by calling me a "b". She informed me that what I called her was a lot worse a name than what she called me. I didn't think she would ever speak to me and she didn't for a while. I ended up apologizing to her and after a while she "forgave" me. I never got an apology from her. Back then, and for years afterward, I apologized for things I didn't do. I was always saying "I'm sorry". Someone had a bad day--"I'm sorry," someone did this or did that which had nothing at all to do with me..."I'm sorry". I was often told "You didn't do anything, HO, so don't apologize". (They used my name, I added the HO, ha!)
Same thing happens in AA, I have learned. I have made amends to people even when deep down I felt they had more a part in it than me. I had to let that go and just go ahead and get er done, though. I never and probably will never hear any apology from any of them. And I have noticed that since then and making amends as I go to people I think I have harmed, that is mostly the case. It has seemed a bit unfair to me at the time, and I have to watch getting resentments towards them all over again, because then I am back where I started. There is a certain amount of peace that I feel knowing that I have done what is right.
HO (ha!)
-- Edited by hopefulone on Thursday 17th of September 2015 10:44:01 AM
