At a meeting the other day a new person came in wanting help. She said that she was cross addictive and had been in the program before but some time ago. The person chairing the meeting has a lot of sobriety, well spoken and well read. He started grilling this person as to whether she thought she had a drinking problem. He more or less said that her answer would depend whether this would be an open or closed meeting because this was an AA not an NA meeting and maybe this person doesn't belong here. A person with not much sobriety said that she should be able to stay just based on her addiction. The chairperson said that there is difference with AA and NA and that he was wrong with his assumption. I wanted to chime in to tell him that that I think she should stay because this may be her only chance for her desire to ask for help and that there are no NA meetings any where close. I didn't say anything because I didn't want to turn the meeting into an argue fest and because the chairperson seems to know his stuff about the program. The new person finally said that she probally has a drinking problem and the chairperson allowed her to stay. I asked my sponser whether I should have spoke up and he said I should have. I just think that AA or NA are addictions an either can benefit from either meeting. One might feel more comfortable sharing at their own special meeting but to me addiction is addiction and the 12 steps are the solution. This new person got a ride to this meeting, was very soft spoken, timid and confused. She did not share much. She did not come back to the next meeting.
I would agree with you. The Chairperson probably had a lot of years and was acting in a way he was taught. Old school AA. Times have changed. We need to change with the times. We need to be loving and tolerant of others who are looking for help. That's our code. Let the individual decide if AA or NA or both is for them. Many meetings, if not all, here have folks that are Alcoholics and Addicts. To me, it's all the same. The thinking, feeling and behavoir of an addict. Aren't we just addicted to Alcohol? It's a liquid or solid I use for relief and my allergy craves more. My mind and body like it, so I obess about it when I'm not using it. Round and round we go. My primary choice was Alcohol, but I also ingested my share of dry goods.
The solution is the same! The 12 Steps to a Spiritual Awakening.
I agree with both you and Mike ... I've been around a while and have experienced the scenario above with old timers too ... while I can relate to the reasons some old timers take on not allowing NA prospects in on AA meetings, I believe our main goal, after working the steps, is to help others ... period!!! (addict/alcoholic or not) ... I don't think it proper, for me, to say 'You're not an Alcoholic, I cannot help you nor are you welcome here' ... THAT, my friends, goes against everything I've learned in this program ...
If I possess the knowledge and skills to help someone in any way, shape, or form, then I would be remiss if I didn't use them to help others, when they are in need, no matter the circumstances ...
I also think if a person came in to an AA meeting looking for help because they are drug addicts, they will hear some similarities in our stories ... and they will come to know that we deal mainly with alcohol ... (although we have many, many members that are 'cross' addicted) ... and in the course of helping the drug addict, we can point them in the right direction to NA groups better able to assist them ... our 'ATTITUDE' here is crucial to perhaps saving a life ... (We will lose interest in selfish things and gain interest in our fellows. Self-seeking will slip away. Our whole attitude and outlook upon life will change.)
Hell, if the drug addict doesn't find what they need at the moment in AA, they'll move on soon enough ... at least that's been my experience ... them being an addict is NEVER a good reason to tell them to 'move on', because they should be welcome ... and yes, guys, I do know what the 3rd Tradition says ... to that I would say to re-read Tradition 12 ...
I will point out that our condition of 'anonymity' must be highly stressed for any 'new comer' ...
God Bless, Pappy
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
and Tash, you posted this a while back and I checked it out, ... wow, who knew ??? ... all I can say is that it's a good thing I didn't have that at my disposal when I was drink'n ... seems like it would be easier to hide ... to which I got really good at ... However, my wife would usually find a stash or two ... pour it out in front of me ... then I'd go to another hiding place when I could remember where it was, LOL ... (and 'no', I never hide them in the laundry, LOL) ...
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
The AA singleness of purpose principle applies. It is a crucial parameter designed to assure the continued viability of AA.
AA is not for non-alcoholics. This truth has been hammered out and understood going back to the very beginnings of AA. People who are not alcoholics can never become members of AA.
If someone is cross-addicted (alcohol and drugs), he is welcome in AA. He can attend both open and closed AA meetings. If someone is solely an addict (no alcohol), she cannot be an AA member. She can attend open AA meetings (anybody can) but cannot attend closed AA meetings.
Any AA member, separately from AA and separately from an AA meeting, can help any non-alcoholic in any way they can devise.
AA is not a cure-all. It is for alcoholics.Any alcoholics.
Aside from AA rules, principals, life rules and morality, what would God do? I guess I already answered my own question on this one. Thanks for letting me share.
Last time I checked Bill W. Did his share of pill popping. The BB is full of other stories where alcoholics share their drug abuse as well Dr. Bobs nightmare and Doctor Alcoholic Addict. Maybe he needs to read the Big Book again. "We are all spiritually ill to some extent" even a chairperson with yrs of sobriety.
Hi everyone! Good topic! I've only been sober in A.A. for 26 years but, in my limited experience, I've never met a drug addict who wasn't addicted to alcohol as well. At the same time, I've met very few alcoholics who haven't had the same trouble with drugs too. Today probably 99% of the people who attend the meetings I go to are both alcoholics and addicts. In other words, they're "cross-addicted". No person who asks for help from those in an A.A. meeting should ever be rejected or turned away.
Here are couple of relevant posts on this subject from an earlier conversation. While deciding how to post my opinions, I realized that someone else had already done so. Quite well:
Fyne Spirit wrote:
Blu858 wrote:
I did read the pamplet. The pamplet does not say- you're in. Too me (my situation) it say's- you're out. I was hoping the sentiment was considered out dated. I do realize it was written by Bill W.
No my friend it's not out dated. AA is still not the answer to all problems and still has but one primary purpose which is to carry it's message to the alcoholic who still suffers, a purpose for which a non alcoholic is not suited. BCS's views may not be popular in our modern all inclusive world, but he speaks the truth. Even the third tradition, the only requiremnt for membership is a desire to stop drinking is only part of the picture. In needs to be taken in its intended context (a tradition for an organisation whose sole purpose is to help alcoholics) which can be seen in the long version which starts 'Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism.... It really is dishonest, when alcohol is not a problem for an individual, for them to then say but I want to stop drinking so therefore I am a member. That is not the true intent of the tradition and it harms our fellowship.
In my case, I am an Alcoholic. I don't understand, relate to or know the first thing about drug addiction. I find that whole scene completely alien. Luckily for me the person who 12 stepped me was an alcoholic, had it been a non alcoholic addict, I doubt if I would be here. If you sent me to see an addict, I wouldn't know where to start, except to suggest he contact the appropriate fellowship.
An impression I have, which may be completely wrong, I wouldn't know, is that Cocaine Anonymous, maybe nearer to what you are looking for.
The real point here is a non-alcoholic cannot carry the message to a real alcoholic (the 12th step). If they could, AA would not need to exist. If you can't practice the 12th step, what is the point? On the other hand, other fellowships, maybe NA, maybe CA, need you desperately, there you can practice the 12th step and experience the full rewards this program has to offer.
God bless,
MikeH
Fyne Spirit wrote:
Mark, I met that guy at a convention in 1981. He came to NZ to speak at our evening public meeting and he was a real scream. Absolutely hilarious entertaining speaker with a great message. We also had an Alanon speaker from Australia who also had a marvelous message and all this happened at about the time of my 1st birthday. I met all kinds of interesting people, even a television news reporter from Hawaii!.
I am one of those pure alcoholics (a bit of an oxymoron really) and I know we are fairly rare these days. I am also an "AA baby", also quite rare in this part of the world.
In threads like this one and similar discussions I have heard over the years, there often tends to be a difference between what is said or written and what is heard or read. Apart from the very early days when AA was very much finding its way, the tradition has always been to include all who suffer from alcoholism regardless of any other addiction or indeed any other of the many characteristics and failings a person might have. So being a drug addict most definitely does not exclude an alcoholic from membership in the fellowship of AA.
There was a time back in the eighties just before NA got started here that AA was the only 12 step fellowship operating. During that time the AA meetings were attended by "pure" drug addicts and also overeaters as neither of these groups yet had fellowships of their own. The AAs were extraordinarily tolerant as you would expect, and did not try to keep the program to themselves. During this time I was living in a smaller city and for a time the fellowship there was somewhat overrun with a largish group of loud and intolerant hard drug users and the meetings became rather unpleasant, and very off topic, to say the least. I had been sober about three or four years and still had my AA friends in my home town, so I was ok, I left those meetings and as I was travelling a lot, I just went to other meetings around the country. But what about the newcomer, to my shame I didn't give them much thought. An abiding memory I have was that of a middle aged female closet drinker who turned up at one of these meetings. It was her first meeting and her last. I tried to talk to her after the meeting but she made it plain we had nothing she wanted, she did not identify at all. More than that, I'll never forget the look of fear and bewilderment on her face as she left, stopping several times to look over her shoulder to make sure we weren't following.
In time NA and OA were formed and all fellowships benefited. But I often wonder how many alcoholics we lost in that time when we were trying to be all things to all people.
I wonder what the outcome would have been for that woman if she had experienced the approach described in the BB page 18 "But the ex problem drinker (alcoholic) who has found this solution , who is properly armed with facts about himself, can generally win the entire confidence of another alcoholic in a few hours. Until such an understanding is reached, little or nothing can be accomplished."
So, in the eighties were we pioneers in AA? Were we breaking new ground. Hardly! in 1958 Bill W said this "Sobriety- freedom from alcohol- through the teaching and practice of the Twelve Steps is the sole purpose of an AA group. Groups have repeatedly tried other activities, and they have always failed.... If we don't stick to these principles, we shall almost surely collapse. And if we collapse, we cannot help anyone."
Blu858 feels un-authentic introducing him/herself as an alcoholic. Does un-authentic mean false, deceptive, dishonest? How would he or she expect to reconcile that with a way of life that demands rigorous honesty?
Blu585 I would hope our meetings would not be so rude as to say WTF are you doing here. There are plenty of thieves, thugs and villains in AA but very few saints, and no one in a position to judge another. We do need friends and we try to be cooperative and helpful wherever we can, it is part of our 12 step work. Sometimes that might mean explaining what AA isn't as well.
'Course MIP isn't AA and you are very welcome here!
AA is for alcoholics, of all kinds. AA is not for non-alcoholics. Non-alcoholics can be helped by anyone--outside of AA. (Such as here at MIP.)
The more we, those of us who are members of AA, entertain well meaning but errant impulses to open up AA to other "deserving" PURPOSES, the more we follow the path to oblivion and failure of the Washingtonians and Oxford Group/MRA. The pioneers of AA hoped to do better than those organizations.
AA is not a cure-all.
-- Edited by Tanin on Thursday 16th of October 2014 05:55:50 PM
There are many ways to remove alcoholic shame. Hearing another alcoholics story is one route. God keeps us all where we're needed and makes no mistakes. That is what I found out by working all 12 steps in aa. Not just by being in aa. Those steps are the same for every program. Find one that will feel right for you and do not focus on what others think of you. What they think is none of your business... it's between you and your hp. I hated when people mentioned god when I was new. I know now I was still where I needed to be and never alone through any of it.
-- Edited by justadrunk on Thursday 16th of October 2014 08:38:05 PM
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
