Thanks Stepchild.

 

Oddly enough I have found that being willing to go to any length to get it, is enough for positive results. That is, in most cases, I did not have to go to any length (as I had imagined).

 

This also reminds me of the three pertinent ideas:

(a) That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives.

(b) That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism.

(c) That God could and would if He were sought. (Alcoholics Anonymous, p. 60)

-- Edited by Part VII on Monday 25th of August 2014 01:34:09 AM

"Almost none of us liked the self-searching, the leveling of our pride, the confession of shortcomings which the process requires for its successful consummation. But we saw that it really worked in others, and we had to come to believe in the hopelessness and futility of life as we had been living it. When, therefore, we were approached by those in whom the problem had been solved, there was nothing left for us but to pick up the simple kit of spiritual tools laid at our feet."

 

That's a gift gonee...The gift of desperation. I think every real alcoholic receives that gift. AA gives us a chance to open it up and put it to God's use.....Or it kills us.

"Almost none of us liked the self-searching, the leveling of our pride, the confession of shortcomings which the process requires for its successful consummation."

i did when i was drinkin!! but it wasn't mine, it was everyone elses self searching,leveling of pride, and confession of shortcomings I did. wasn't afraid to tell em either.
then when i was doin my 4th step i saw how anger and resentment were built up in my when others did it to me. and that proved they were right about me.


good stuff here. ya know, i never really looked at "it" being victory over alcohol, but now it makes sense.i recall early on, after reading the BB a few times, deciding i wanted what you had and was willing to go to any lengths, but i don't know if i knew what "it" was at the time. i think most of what i considered 'it" was the peace and serenity i saw and heard in the ones that went before me.
and to obtain victory over alcohol, i worked the steps and all of the promises of the BB have come true at some time or another. i like them.

yeah, that's a lightbulb that went off by reading this thread. thanks!!

Robert Chavez wrote:

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He stayed on me due to my propensity for reciting the BB, which I knew front and back, yet I "could not" stay sober. I had been through the steps too!

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That's interesting...I don't think I've ever heard anybody share that. The only way I could see that being possible....Is that you half assed it...Or lied your way through the steps. Was that the problem? Because I don't think I've seen this program of action fail yet. I know they say rarely....I haven't seen it once.

It's simple....the 12th step is very clear and so was Bill. Thoroughly followed their path...hmm what path. Bill describes this in his story where Ebby had emphasized the...here it is...ABSOLUTE NECCESSITY of demonstrating these principles  (aka 12 steps) in all our affairs.(past tense) Particularly was it imperative(of vital importance) to work with others as he had worked with Mr. Wilson. Faith w/o works is dead he said. And how appallingly (gota love his choice of words) true for the....(here's a good part).......alcoholic! (does he mean a real one?) For if an (here's that phrase again) "alcoholic" failed to perfect AND enlarge his spiritual life through work(what kind of work) AND self- sacrifice for others he "could not" (suggests past tense) survive the certain trials and low spots ahead.(what does he mean?)....he tells us with the next sentence, If he did not work, he would surely DRINK AGAIN, and if he drank he would surely die. Then faith would be dead indeed(Faith...my desire not to drink?). I am a real alcoholic and after I went thru the steps I did not do any of the above. As if going thru the steps were a magic wand of sorts. I did not do what the 12 step is very clear on....."as the result of the steps" is described in the II APPENDICE. Most of us have what they called an Educational Variety Spiritual experience, it develops slowly over time PROVIDED, we are doing what Bill called...the work. I did not do ...the work. So my experience as a real alki tells me that just getting thru the steps will not keep a real alki sober, maybe someone with a drinking problem can, but I have alcoholism. So I learned that I have to practice these principles as a way of life..as resting on my laurels is deadly. So when I work with a man I make darn sure he hears me loud and clear. If we fail to enlarge and perfect our spiritual life by not living these principles, just going thru them will not save him. So fellas that's my story. My sponsor and I did not do a half-measure job with the steps....I just failed to do what Bill called....the work.

I don't think any part of the book sums that up better than this....

The spiritual life is not a theory. We have to live it.

BB pg 83

We hear this statement in mtgs....(newcomer present) "Your the most important person in this room"  Personally, I cringe when I hear that. Our literature reads that we(alki's) are self-centered to the extreme. Our view of ourselves is an inflated sense of self-importance.  The steps are a means of reducing our ego's. When a new person shows up, regardless of what he/she says,  we ought to be aware that feeding into that mind set may be aiding them in a negative way. I see this situation totally different from when I was a greenhorn. Today I am the most important person in any meeting and that my sobriety is my #1priority. Every else's is secondary.  If I am not sober and sane and not in a mtg, it makes no difference whose there. Our sobriety must be our first priority.  This does not mean that others sobriety isn't important, quite the contrary,as when my spiritual condition is healthy, others needs are lmportant and I can be efeffective at aiding them in a healthy manner. I see the message, that our personal recovery is paramount, is healthy. Telling new people something that resembles frothy emotional appeal isn't. In fact, Bill describes the approach  with them in this way..."Let them know they are playing a vital role in our own recovery and that they may be helping us more than we are helping them"  At any rate the message we carry ought to one that is drenched in our primary purpose, to stay sober and help others recover. Healthy self care, and healthy self concern is an important message to carry.

 

..."Let them know they are playing a vital role in our own recovery and that they may be helping us more than we are helping them"   For me this says just about the same thing as the other and similar statements of welcome just a bit more exacting and wordy and still a welcome.   I wasn't given either wording when first introduced to AA...and my response was to turn my back on the "talkers" and "AA Nazis" and "BB" pounders that were "shoulding" on me every opportunity they got.  So I used another door.  This is a simple program for complicated persons and only about progress.  "We realize that we know only a little" is a daily ego set for me along with "...And that one is God may you find Him now".  

I hear ya Stepchild, the quality of the message is important. I take an active role, and feel I owe a huge debt to the  rooms so I take my responsibility seriously,  however, to balance that with the 1st tradition can be frustrating at times. I was at a mtg one nite when a man spoke up and declared he came there to hear something about alcoholism that could help him instead of the crap he was hearing.....it was a memorable moment. It drove home for me exactly what we are talking about. I'm no nazi, but I believe I have a responsibility to the people suffering from un-treated alcoholism and do my part by being sure I stick to tradition 5. 

I believe they're very ridged thinkers about aa, that there is no other way to get sober. Treat aa as a religion. Their way is sacred.

To me, thinking what's best for everyone else is what I'm doing falls under "old ideas the we have to let go off absolutely". What keeps you sober might get me drunk. Stepchild, I wasn't keen on the big book. I went to a couple of big book studies and it didn't appeal to me, nor did the discussions I heard there. Then I tried 12 & 12 meetings and loved them. I had two home groups, both were 12 & 12 meetings, one on monday to get my head right for the week, and one on friday night to get my head right for the weekend. I rarely missed those meetings for 4 years and wound up reading the book 36 times straight. I didn't use the big book for my 4th step either. But I did manage to work all the steps with a sponsor. I've sponsored very few people and never sponsored a new comer (was never asked). Never attended group conscience meetings, never a GSR, never took meetings to an institution. I lead a few meetings, spoke a couple of times and managed to stay sober a quarter century, imagine that ;)

What I learned about myself was that I was very damaged from my childhood. both parents were alcoholics, father was rarely around, mother was a mental patient. Only sibling (brother) was mentally challenged. I was on my own most of the time. I resented authority, rules of any kind, and people that talked down to me. I would have never made it in your AA Step C. Thank God that there were kind gentle people that smiled when I showed up and didn't push me, they just kept saying things like "keep bringing the body and the mind will follow". And I did. It took awhile but it took what it took. I had to get a lot of help from several other 12 step groups just to clear up some issues so that I could see my way clear to follow some direction in AA and put my faith in the process. Thank God I didnpt walk into a meeting and hear someone read "the definition of an AA" from the Akron pamphlets, like this fundemental group in our town does, I'd have left and probably died. They're a bunch of in your face "you got to do JUST LIKE THIS" folks, I swear that they must have no life. so much for my rant lol.

When Bill W. had his spritual awakening...As the result of the process that he went thru with his friend Ebby (pgs 9-14 Bill's Story) He wanted every alcoholic to have what he had.

These were revolutionary and drastic proposals, but the moment I fully accepted them, the effect was electric. There was a sense of victory, followed by such a peace and serenity as I had never known. There was utter confidence. I felt lifted up, as though the great clean wind of a mountain top blew through and through. God comes to most men gradually, but His impact on me was sudden and profound.

BB pg 14

God came to me gradually....And He came to me in the form that I changed the way I live.

He tried for six months to sober up drunks with no success. It was his friend Doctor Silkworth that told Bill that rather than focusing on the spirtualality of the process.....To focus on the hopelessness of the situation alcoholics are in. Thus giving Bill our first step...Which he shared with Doctor Bob....Which got this whole ball rolling.

So when I share in meetings...I try and stay on this track....This is a fatal progressive illness....It will kill....It came close to killing me. There is a spiritual solution to this problem...That worked for this alcoholic when nothing else did. I had no God when I came into AA...Which I believe was the main contributor to my hopelessness. I found a power greater than myself by working those 12 steps and It solved my problem. And if anyone wants to carefully follow the directions in the book....Preferably with a sponsor to guide them.....They can solve their problem too.

That is the backbone of what I share.....And I always look at it like this....If God put someone in that meeting that was hurting as much as I was when I came into AA...That needed to hear that...Then maybe I served God and my fellow alcoholics in some small way. Maybe a big way...You never know. But at least I wasn't sitting in a meeting talking about what an A-hole my boss is or how I'm pissed some guy cut me off in traffic. God gave us brains to use.....I guess I believe that this is a message that might do someone some good. I've had people come up to me and tell me they really got something out of what I said....Most of the time I can't even remember what it was.

They talk about it killing people in the book Pinkchip...Quite a bit. That's not just my opinion...It does kill. I've seen enough of it.

Nice shares...again, attempting to balance the traditions with my personality takes effort. There are times when I have to use restraint and bite my tongue. The personality of the mtg has a influence on my input.  I don't think about all this as it's happening so much as it has become a working part of my mind. The 1st tradition was a principal I began practicing some time ago. Today I am astounded by it all. AA is not a religion for me but serves as a wheelhouse, if you will, for life. It(AA) has been the means,to a wonderfull way to live, and I feel a responsibility to share that. The ole ego likes to chime in from time to time and I have to be        on guard. It's much easier today using principles before my  personality,  but  sometimes I get twisted.  I adore this way of life and balance is a daily walk, as in my opinion,  thats life. By the way I respect the12&12 as well and frequent the mtgs. I find much instructions or directions in the pages. As I see it all AA is a God inspired thing and have matured to where I am able to keep an open mind......finally. There's alot of freedom in that.

Step Child,

I'm not even real sure what an AA nazi is to tell you the truth..
There was a soup Nazi on Sienfeld. Seems like the catch phrase "AA Nazi" may have stemmed from that aroma.

Live and let live.

Hi toad. Its so nice to see you. I loved that episode! Xoxo

pinkchip wrote:

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People don't stay sober because of the Big Book persay. It's from practicing the things in the book.

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 That's the whole kit and kaboodle kit.

Stepchild wrote:

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There are no directions in the 12 & 12. Don't get me wrong...I'm glad your way worked for you. But I am entitled to my own opinion....And I honestly think the 12 & 12 probably kills more alcoholics than it saves. 

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 How does the 12 & 12 kill alcoholics?

BoozeWar wrote:

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The thing Ive heard since day 1 is the only requirement for membership is a "Desire to stop Drinking".   I think the "It" is a way of "Completely giving ourselves to this simple program" with the desire, staying sober and not giving up while we do the work.

---

 

Yep. Also relevant to discussion going on on another thread. I know what works for me and can share that, but something else might work for someone else. It's a broad tent, thank goodness. Otherwise those 'cult' rumours might be true.

Pretty simple Tanin....It doesn't contain the information we need to recover. There is no message there....No description of the alcoholic....No chapter to the agnostic....No directions.

We have a meeting in the town I live in...It's labeled a Big Book meeting....I went once. They read from the 12 & 12...Around the room....For 45 minutes. And shared about what they read for 15 minutes. For people that don't know anything about AA...That book doesn't make a lot of sense. I saw some confused people in that meeting. I would imagine some of them didn't even bother coming back. I'm sure my town isn't the only town that this happens in.

It's a book of essays on the steps....With the traditions......For some hopeless drunk that wanders in looking for how it works.....I think it falls short. It's pretty common knowledge that Dr. Bob was against a second book....Everything needed was already in the first one. Probably not a coincidence it was published shortly after he passed away.

I'm glad to see I'm not alone in this Hello....I had an old timer explain to me the reason behind it. And it makes sense. Bill knew nobody was going to rush out and buy a book that was just about the traditions. Bill being the entrepreneur that he was...And his love for writing.....Made the package a little more attractive by adding these essays on the steps. I was blessed when I was in rehab....My counselor gave me a copy of the Big Book as my recovery plan. That was God working.

You know what I think a lot of people forget Hello?...Or they don't even know. Alcoholics Anonymous is not a book named after a fellowship....It's a fellowship named after a book.

Stepchild - the fellowship was forming before the book was written also right? The need for fellowship and the idea of 1 alcoholic helping another was discovered before the book was written. The stumbled on this wonderful set of curative factors for alcoholics and then put it in a book after it had shown to be working....That is evident in the Doctor's Opinion. So to some degree...it is a book named after a fellowship. But I get your point.

My sister was my #1 party buddy for years. We had lots in common. I remember times when Val would start drinking and was off for days. Some times we did that together. One thing for certain....once she(or me) started drinking, no telling what was to happen. The allergy was present in both her and I, no doubt. Valerie has been sane and sober for 25 plus years.  She chose to do that some years before I did. Funny though,  she  did this through church not aa. Never set foot in a mtg! We have talked at great lengths about our recoveries and our drinking careers. Val acknowledges the obsession and the allergy, admits she has alcoholism as defined by the BB. However, her spiritual life is an example for me.....she lives life according to principles as do I, yet I found my way in AA? That is an example that is close and personal....I have met other people who have recovered from alcoholism too that found their way, not in AA. Bill made a comment that amounts to AA not being the only way to recover....ie "We have no monopoly on God". What I know is that for me and many like me, AA has worked when all else fell short. Why is a question I let go of years ago. Why others, as my sister, can recover w/o AA is non of my business but I know it happens. I would label myself nieve if I thought AA was the only way to recover from alcoholism via the spiritual experience. It's a mighty big world, with alot of stuff going on, way outside my scope of understanding. I've come to accept that! God is or he isn't.  As far as the 12&12 goes, I find that a very interesting book, that is part of this wonderful movement.  Bill was probably at genius level. His ability to see forward was astounding.  He made a couple of declaration s about the writing of the 12&12 in that when he wrote the text, it was used for only the last gaspers or low bottom drunks...later on people who still had cars, drivers license,  jobs, homes etc etc were beginning to realize they too may have alcoholism,  so Bill as he did so well addressed their needs by writing the 12&12. He even change some points of view he addressed in the basic text as he had matured  over the yrs. From my perspective,  anyway someone finds a spiritual awakening,  a transformation,  a coversion, or what ever label we want to use, God is every where and if some earnestly seeks him, well, I believe they will find him whether it's in AA, church, some skid row shelter or at home with the shades drawn, God comes to all that seek him...as Bill so eloquently put it. It just so happens that  I had to be beaten down by alcohol before I EARNRESTLY sought him.  My sis earnestly sought him and she is sober and sane as they come. AA is a wonderfull fellowship and has provided me and countless others a new way to live. It's just not the only game in town that works....but if a new man wants to try it and follows directions.....well we know the answer to that. 

LOL....I hear ya. I've had all sorts of beliefs and expectations about folks that are priests, minister's pastors etc, that they must be really spiritual folk, that police don't break the law and our presidents are honest...of course I was 12 yrs old then! I knew a guy that would proclaim ALL pit bulls were killer dogs because he was attacked by one when he was a child....he never outgrew his childhood perspective. I'm an intelligent man but I couldn't speak  intelligently as to why he didn't. Why priests sober up in AA and not within the confines of their way of life is interesting but the facts are that ALL of them, do not need AA, and all priest are not "spiritually connected". I know auto mechanics I would not take my car to for repairs. Life is a buffet for sure, and I love it. Learning to open my mind is a very interesting principle that fires my imagination and allows freedom to seep in....and out! I seem to be ready to throw out an old gadget for a new one. I adore life and all it is, but there's no figuring it out. One of my dear friends Dave H  from Columbus Ohio use to (he passed) finish his lead with this "Life is good, we just have to learn to leave it alone" .  Thanks Dave H. I understand what you meant.

-- Edited by Robert Chavez on Friday 29th of August 2014 12:50:00 PM

-- Edited by Robert Chavez on Friday 29th of August 2014 12:51:12 PM

Seems to me the concepts and principles belong to no one and everyone- cuz who knows how old spiritual experiences based on the spiritual path this program travels actually are. Its all very fascinating historically... then again today... this moment is the past and future that feels like the now that really matters?

-- Edited by justadrunk on Saturday 30th of August 2014 12:10:06 AM

Rite on stepchild, suggested means just that....suggested. If someone chooses not to take the suggestions thats ok, it doesn't mean they are lepers or such, it's their right. They are mystical suggestions for sure but it took me having to go thru alot of humiliations,  and pain, to make the decision. When another possible member of AA doesn't go along with the suggestions,  my goal is to help him/her feel welcome. Remembering my own experience in what I had to go thru,  helps with my principles before personality issue. 

My sponsor's sponsor who passed away 2 years ago used to say that working and practicing the steps was a way to know what kind of problem you are having at any given time and how to move toward the solution. Some problems require amends, some self inventory, some surrendering, some require us to build and maintain better faith. It is truly a recipe for living and it's all in the steps. Prior to AA, I did not know how to live and that was a large part, if not the largest reason I drank. No wonder actually working and living the steps actually does lead to the promises coming true in our lives (9th step promises as well as others).

Stepchild wrote:

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I've only seen one path that works.

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 StepC  this is one of several linear thoughts that you have expressed here.  This particular  statement can be summarized as anecdotal evidence.  Your beloved big book even reads that AA is not the only way to get sober.  I get it that you are of the "first 164 pages" ilk, that's fine for you, and I'm happy that it got you sober.  I have read the big book a number of times, and I have the big book on CD and have listened to it several more times.  This is not a big book vs. 12 & 12 discussion for me. To me it's all good.  What I'm hearing you say is that  fiercely defending the first 164 pages (and wanting to throw everything else away) is more important than the new comer, which  is crazy talk.  And that's what I'm hearing.  To hell with some folks that don't like what they hear, leave and don't come back.  It's ok for them to die, but not the (supposed) folks that read the 12 & 12 and die, right?  .  

As for other groups, such as NA.  You do know that both of AA's founders died from lung cancer (a drug addiction) and thousands of other non smoking AA's died from second hand smoke (several of my old timer friends and my first sponsor).  So "Singleness of purpose"  killed the founders and a lot of other members.  So much for your perfect AA.  

Rarely have we seen a person fail.... doesn't say we have never seen a person get sober that hasn't followed our path. I've met dozens of folks that were alcoholics, got sober and never stepped into an AA meeting. I've met others that attended a few meetings, it wasn't for them, and they got sober elsewhere. It's not the only way and It' not for everyone, and the founders were candid about that. Hence why is the success rate less than 5%? I not bashing AA. I know it's a wonderful fellowship and program, it's just that claiming exclusiveness (like most religions do) is counter productive. I tell you something else, I've been attending meetings since '76 and I've seen a lot of people who were all "gung ho" about AA for 2,3,4 years and go out before their 5th anniversary. The average person in AA has just under 5 years, that's the fall off point for the majority that stay sober more than 9 months. I was aware of these statistics when I had 1 year ('89 census) and I  took a deep breath on my 5th anniversary. and another on my 10th.

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Sunday 31st of August 2014 09:24:30 PM

StPeteDean wrote:

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Rarely have we seen a person fail.... doesn't say we have never seen a person get sober that hasn't followed our path. I've met dozens of folks that were alcoholics, got sober and never stepped into an AA meeting. I've met others that attended a few meetings, it wasn't for them, and they got sober elsewhere. It's not the only way and It' not for everyone, and the founders were candid about that.

Where do you see where I disagreed with that Dean? Seriously.

 

Hence why is the success rate less than 5%? I not bashing AA. I know it's a wonderful fellowship and program, it's just that claiming exclusiveness (like most religions do) is counter productive.

Again....Never said that.

 

I tell you something else, I've been attending meetings since '76 and I've seen a lot of people who were all "gung ho" about AA for 2,3,4 years and go out before their 5th anniversary. The average person in AA has just under 5 years, that's the fall off point for the majority that stay sober more than 9 months. I was aware of these statistics when I had 1 year ('89 census) and I  took a deep breath on my 5th anniversary. and another on my 10th.

Is this some kind of a threat Dean....Is this what I got to look forward to? What a crock....Probably better you're not into sponsoring people.

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Sunday 31st of August 2014 09:24:30 PM

---

 

Victimizing yourself now? classic! How can that be a threat? It's just an observation, which I'm sure you've seen people that were all about AA, chapter and verse, they tend to burn out, and these are the folks that don't come back because of their highly prolific former status. It's a dangerous role to be in.

I've seen problem drinkers get dry without AA (problem drinker, quit drinking, problem solved).

I've seen lots of alkies like me try to "quit on their own" and die ...

I am one of those alcoholics as described in The Big Book. AA works just fine for me (after I got use to it) ... got grateful.

I have seen many AAs get dry in AA then get divorced after a period of time... they hadn't got sober (ALL 12 Steps). Their families hated them. They were dry !!

This is an AA message board for God's sake !! Not a board that says "There are lots of ways to get sober" !!.... If you want what we have then you are ready to take certain Steps.

lets "Get back on the beam" !! WTF would God say if HE were here ??!!

AA has so much to offer that we don't even realize yet. We are still in the dark about many things. "Keep coming back, it gets better".


I don't care why you cringe when you hear things at meetings. Get over it and quit trolling.

Just my $0.02 Canadian

Bob R

2granddaughters wrote:

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This is an AA message board for God's sake !! Not a board that says "There are lots of ways to get sober" !!.... If you want what we have then you are ready to take certain Steps.

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This.....And I believe if you think you are not ready....I only know one way that will get you ready...

Many of us have been so touchy that even casual reference to spiritual things made us bristle with antagonism. This sort of thinking had to be abandoned. Though some of us resisted, we found no great difficulty in casting aside such feelings. Faced with alcoholic destruction, we soon became as open minded on spiritual matters as we had tried to be on other questions. In this respect alcohol was a great persuader. It finally beat us into a state of reasonableness. Sometimes this was a tedious process; we hope no one else will be prejudiced for as long as some of us were.

BB pg 48

It sure worked for me.

 

 

Hello its me wrote:

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One must have a spiritual awakening of sufficient significance to recover from alcoholism.

I'm sure there is more than one way to do this.

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 This is an important point for me.  I believe that a spiritual awakening is one method that can lead to recovery from alcoholism and, like you, believe there is more than one way to accomplish this.

But can it be sustained, supported, and nurtured as we do at our meetings? Do alternatives offer a way of revisiting the first step (as well as the rest of them) by working with others? Do other modalities help keep the ego in check as our steps do?

It has been my experience that sobriety can be sustained outside of meetings.  Too, I have found that working with others is very effective.  The reason for its effectiveness, in my opinion, is that is gets us out of self.  To that end, it makes little difference whether I am working with Down Syndrome kids, the elderly, or alcoholics.

-- Edited by Angell on Monday 1st of September 2014 04:30:58 PM

 

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Yes, the Big Book says that selfishness is the root of our problem, but it doesn't say to go out and volunteer at a nursing home, or dish out food at a homeless shelter (though many do). 

---

 I'm sorry; I think there may be a misunderstanding.  I was simply trying to answer your question:

Do alternatives offer a way of revisiting the first step (as well as the rest of them) by working with others?

when I said:

I have found that working with others is very effective.  The reason for its effectiveness, in my opinion, is that is gets us out of self.  To that end, it makes little difference whether I am working with Down Syndrome kids, the elderly, or alcoholics.

To rephrase better: I have found an alternative way of visiting the steps by working with others.

I may have misinterpreted these responses but I'm confused by them. I am not debating what the Big Book says on the subject. You are correct Stepchild, that's what the Big Book says. Hello_its_me is right too.

All I was trying to respond to were these questions:

But can it be sustained, supported, and nurtured as we do at our meetings? Do alternatives offer a way of revisiting the first step (as well as the rest of them) by working with others? Do other modalities help keep the ego in check as our steps do?

The Big Book does not address 'other modalities' - in fact, I took the words 'other' and 'alternative' to mean ways that aren't in the Big Book. Other ways. Alternative ways. And so I took the question and shared my experience. Much of my experience is based on working the steps. Much of my experience has been other methods. But all I can share is my experience.

Robert Chavez wrote:

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Thanks for the example Bob R. Would you consider that good advice?  It looks like personality before principles to me. I will examine it for any merit that may be in it, if any, for me. My experience is valuable only to those who are able to see it, need it or can use it! I've learned this isn't a popularity thing.  Have a peaceful monday. 

---

 Exactly what my first comments in this thread were in regards to, that if members of this fellowship insist on fundamentalist (in your face) behavior, thumping the big book, and pointing at small hoops that the newcomer HAS to jump through, many of these folks are going to be repulsed and leave.  And what I'm hearing is "good, the message is more important".   There is a big difference in treating alcoholism today then in 1935.  If you don't understand that, then my words are lost on you, I have full life, trust me, I don't need to pretend I'm some sort of "Guardian of the flame" lol.    The examples I made in the later thread, about "alcoholics finding other ways to get sober" outside of AA, was to drive home the point that if there are other ways to get sober, then this fundamentalist garbage (first 164 pages and nothing else)  is BS.  That's why a statement about getting sober somewhere else is so threatening to  these folks.   Last comment I'll here.  

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Tuesday 2nd of September 2014 06:41:58 AM

Hi to everyone,

I've been off the Board for a while, since this computer has been down, but it appears that there has been some controversy, and a bit of talk about "Step-Nazi's" here.  With that in mind, I hope you'll allow me to share an experience I had at a 12 Step retreat several years ago:

On the first day of the retreat, a fellow approached me asking if I'd be willing to hear his Fifth Step.  I told him I be glad to hear his Fifth Step and we set a time for the next morning after breakfast.  When the time came, we walked to a secluded area, made ourselves comfortable, and he began telling me things in a somewhat random way.  The first thing I noticed was that he had nothing in his hands -- no written 4th Step of any kind -- nothing written down.  So I stopped him and asked if he'd forgotten to bring his 4th Step inventory along.  At this, he told me he hadn't written a 4th Step.  When I asked why, he told me, "Well...my sponsor told me I don't need to write anything down.  I don't really need to do a 4th Step.  That's for those Step-Nazi's.  All I need to do is just tell all the crappy stuff I can think of at Step 5."

Upon hearing this, (in true Step-Nazi-form) I informed him that I wouldn't be available to hear his 5th Step until he'd written down a 4th Step.  So, I spent the rest of the morning showing him how to write his 4th Step inventory from the Big Book and the 12&12.  After we did that, he went to his room, wrote out a very lengthy and thorough inventory, and came back to me that evening after dinner for his 5th Step.  Two hours later, after he had finished his 5th Step, he told me this:

"Before I did that 4th Step inventory you made me do, I wasn't going to be honest and tell you any of this stuff I wrote down....not any of it.  Everything I wrote on paper is all the stuff I wasn't going to say."  

Then he thanked me profusely for helping him with Step 4, and showing him how to write out his inventory.  Was I being a "Step-Nazi" with this guy that day?  Maybe.  I don't know.  What I do know is that working the Steps from the Big Book's "suggested" directions changed his life that day.

Thanks for letting me share,

Mike D.

Also, remember, the "suggestions" are just that, suggestions. There is some expected and legitimate variation in how most of the Steps get done. There are few absolutes in how the Steps are done.

 

-- Edited by Tanin on Tuesday 2nd of September 2014 07:52:34 AM

2granddaughters wrote:

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I am not threatened by it at all .. getting sober somewhere else. Go do it then. Just don't peddle it on an AA website.

If you go to the Catholic Church you don't want to hear about Hinduism. Does Hinduism work??... certainly !! But I'm at the Catholic Church for Catholicism.

I believe an AA Message board should follow HOW IT WORKS.

Change the name here to "All forms of recovery message board" if that is what it is.

All the best.

Bob R

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 Bob, this is not an AA website.

Tanin wrote:

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 Bob, this is not an AA website.

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 Then the title of this message board is very misleading.

Tanin wrote:

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Also, remember, the "suggestions" are just that, suggestions. There is some expected and legitimate variation in how most of the Steps get done. There are few absolutes in how the Steps are done.

 

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I read stuff like this and it makes me cringe.

Tanin wrote:

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Also, remember, the "suggestions" are just that, suggestions. There is some expected and legitimate variation in how most of the Steps get done. There are few absolutes in how the Steps are done.

 

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I simply have one question for you Tanin....Can you explain to all of us...Why the book states.....

If we have carefully followed directions, we have begun to sense the flow of His Spirit into us. To some extent we have become God-conscious.

BB pg 85

Rather than...If we have followed some of the suggestions?

I think you at least owe that explanation.

 

 

-- Edited by Stepchild on Tuesday 2nd of September 2014 08:33:35 AM

I'm not talking about prior to the Big Book Tanin...I'm talking about this.

To show other alcoholics PRECISELY HOW WE HAVE RECOVERED is the main purpose of this book.

Foreword to the First edition.

Since when is PRECISELY open to interpretation?

My memory isn't that great and the way I sponsor changes over time as I grow and learn to rely more upon a HP and less upon myself. Aa and the whole movement grows and changes and learns from mistakes too... or at least it should. It has overcome thumpers all along... and as long as it continues to... the changing winds of time will not be a threat. It appears strong today... as it has embraced the online world. We... as the pioneers of that change will hopefully leave a good example of an open mind and heart. Blessings Mike d... great post.

Stepchild wrote:

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justadrunk wrote:

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My memory isn't that great and the way I sponsor changes over time as I grow and learn to rely more upon a HP and less upon myself.

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That might be why they took the time to write the directions down JAD....You can sponsor any way you want....Somehow I feel it is my responsibility to carry the same message that was carried to me. God bless ya!

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 SC, what are the clear instructions in the BB about sponsorship? Say, in the first 179 pages of the 1st edition. That is the part of the BB you recognize as valid, right?

Sponsorship is an important part of AA. 81% of AA's have sponsors. What does your BB selection say about what it is, what it is for, how to do it, et.?