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Post Info TOPIC: When the spiritual malady is overcome, we straighten out mentally and physically.


MIP Old Timer

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When the spiritual malady is overcome, we straighten out mentally and physically.
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Pretty simple statement. From page 64 of the Big Book. It really is what the whole program of AA is about....Isn't it? We are spiritually sick and when we get better spiritually getting better mentally and physically will follow. That's what those steps are for...To face and be rid of the things that are blocking us from living a spiritual life.

I brought that up as a topic in a meeting today and there were people that looked at me like I had two heads. Short for a topic at your next meeting?....Give that one a whirl. All in all....Not a bad meeting.



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A loss of spiritual values. Alcohol was nothing but a symptom to the root cause of our problems. Lack of Power(Powah) that was our dilemma. Odd that people looked at you with four heads. There sobriety must be rooted in just going to meetings. You know what you have when you take a drunken horse thief and sober him up. A sober horse theif. Just food for thought.

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It's funny...The ones that shared were the ones  that are living this program and are living happily without alcohol. I don't find it odd at all....I think a lot of people think if they just keep coming back all will be well....That's what they are told. I think it's important to let them know....There is a lot more to it than that.



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There are some that just don't get it, and die because of it. Simple program for complicated people.



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At home, we say, 'If you take the alcohol out of a fruitcake, you still have a fruitcake'.

For me, I find that the 12 step program helps me to develop into a more truthful person.
From this, I make better choices by following me conscience (God's-will), as best I can (faith in action).
Such choices tends to nurture my well-being (mentally, physically, and spiritually).

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Is this the same meeting group comprised of many folks who haven't read the Big Book? (I'm not making that up, right?) It's unfortunate that so many people fail to see the spiritual component of the program and I wonder how many of them are able to stay sober long-term. I would obviously never judge whatever works for people, but I feel like it is hard to stop the suffering without getting to the root cause of it. At least, that's what I've had to figure out for myself. Last year I went six months without drinking, but it didn't include regular meetings, a sponsor, or the steps. I felt better during the day, for sure, but was still plagued by nights when my body was screaming for alcohol and eventually I relapsed. Going to (almost) daily meetings lately and working the steps has really illuminated for me how much is missing in the program without digging deep into and healing my twisted spiritual foundations.

-Adam

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MIP Old Timer

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AdamMoz wrote:

Is this the same meeting group comprised of many folks who haven't read the Big Book? (I'm not making that up, right?) It's unfortunate that so many people fail to see the spiritual component of the program and I wonder how many of them are able to stay sober long-term.


Same meeting.....But a lot of them were different people. To answer your question...About how many of them stay sober long term....Not many. I was talking to an oldtimer the other day...He celebrated 37 years last month....He was telling me that one out of 35 people in AA stay sober long term....That's roughly three percent. I'm not big on statistics....But that number wouldn't surprise me at all. I've seen thousands come in...I've seen thousands go.....I know very few that came into AA the same time I did that have maintained continuous sobriety....And that's in three years. Very few.

But I do have one statistic that I believe to be true.....For myself and the ones I know that do have long term (At least a year or more ) of continuous contented sobriety.....They've all worked the steps...And continue to live in steps 10, 11 and 12....I haven't seen that fail yet. I've seen people that had it and stopped doing it...And go back out. But not of the ones that continue to practice it and stay connected to it.

If there is anyone on this board that has differing numbers than those.....I'd love to hear it.

Rarely have we seen a person fail?.....I've never seen a person fail...That took the action the book suggests. Not one.



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Great thread Stepman, ... and I concur 100% ... ... ...

I think many come, get sober by working the steps and going to meetings, but never get that 'over-whelming' spiritual connection ... they simply go through the motions ... not a very good basis for our sobriety ... personally? ... I think they either never 'let go and let God' or at some point, they take back all they 'turned over' to Him to begin with ... then the old ways of living life return ...



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I think this is one of the most wonderful pomises that the Book gives us. It is amazing, because there is so much hope in it.

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On a personal note, I've always disagreed with that often overheard statement that the only step you have to take 100% is the first step. In fact, I believe that you can even be on the fence in regards to step one. But! Take the third step 100% and just walk along side Whomever is holding your hand - and more will be revealed.

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Angell wrote:

On a personal note, I've always disagreed with that often overheard statement that the only step you have to take 100% is the first step. In fact, I believe that you can even be on the fence in regards to step one. But! Take the third step 100% and just walk along side Whomever is holding your hand - and more will be revealed.


I like that....The directions for step one are this....

We learned that we had to fully concede to our innermost selves that we were alcoholics. This is the first step in recovery. The delusion that we are like other people, or presently may be, has to be smashed.

BB pg 30

You either concede to that or not....Definition of concede.....

admit that something is true or valid after first denying or resisting it.

Step three we either put our will and lives in the care of God (Whatever that power is to you)....Or you don't. There is no gray area there. God knows how many times I've heard that statement. Very good point Angell.



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myownhell wrote:

I think this is one of the most wonderful pomises that the Book gives us. It is amazing, because there is so much hope in it.


 I couldn't agree with you more MOH.



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I was talking with a guy that does a big book study I attend a few months back before the meeting....And this topic came up. You have to figure there are a lot of people being fed into AA from treatment centers....And a lot of people being fed into treatment centers are there on behalf of the courts..Their families...Their wives....There aren't a lot people there that want to be there. I witnessed this when I was in treatment. (I wasn't crazy about being there but a brother paid my way...My other option was becoming homeless and probably dying on the streets.)

You also have people that come through AA that aren't even real alcoholics....Got a DUI...Or had some other bad alcohol related experience and for whatever reason...Feel this is what they should be doing. I've seen some people in AA that the only reason I can figure out why they are there...Is the social aspect of the program....Face it....We're not a bad bunch of people to hang around with. Some good stories there.

I think if you could take a count somehow of the alcoholic of the hopeless variety that has exhuasted every other avenue and is willing to do whatever it takes to get and remain sober....That being the steps.....You'd have far better numbers for success......Just a little food for thought. All I know for sure....Is for this real alcoholic.....When nothing else worked for me.....This did. For that I'm extrememly grateful.



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Step 3 is making the decision. Do you feel like AAs have to already know how to live a spiritual life before they take this step?

I know for me, I make the decision and "act as if" every single day. When going from no spirituality to living spiritually, there has to be a learning curve built in. At least, there is for me. I wish there was some kind of spiritual switch I could flip, but it's more complicated then that.



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Namaste78 wrote:

Step 3 is making the decision. Do you feel like AAs have to already know how to live a spiritual life before they take this step?


 Yes, you are correct, step three IS about making a decision.  I have heard only fairly recently (the last few years), although it is possible I wasn't listening very closely before this, that step three isn't turning one's live and will over to the care of our HP - just making a decision to do so.  The spiritual awakening happens over the course of working the remainder of the steps.  In some cases I hear it said that the spiritual awakening happens working four through nine.  Personally, I am thrilled whenever anyone has a spiritual awakening - I don't care how they do it.  If it works for you - go for it. 

I interpret the Big Book slightly differently than these folks; which does not mean that I am right... just that if I was wrong, my HP made up for it.  But at the bottom of page 63 the book says, "Next we launched out on a vigorous course of action..."  and then on page 64, "Though our decision was a vital and crucial step (referring to step three) it could have little permanent effect unless at once..."  My interpretation of these passages is simply that just as we immediately start step four - we need not hold back on our decision in step three.  Make a decision and then turn it over.  Why wait? 

Then, from the second passage I quoted, 'our decision could have little permanent effect'... so we are to believe that our decision had an effect that we cannot keep unless we follow it with action.  How many times did I make a decision to quit drinking once and for all?  Until that decision was followed by actually putting down the bottle I had no chance.  Likewise, making a decision to turn my will and my life over to the care of my HP wasn't helpful till I actually turned it over.  I certainly didn't do it perfectly - but I did my best and HP met me where I was.  The rest of the steps drew me closer to HP and a more spiritual life.



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I look at step 3 as making a decision to work the rest of the steps. That is where we face and rid ourselves of what is blocking us from a Higher Power. That decision isn't going to mean much if we are blocked off from it....With resentment...Fear...Selfishness and self centeredness...Self delusion....Guilt and remorse..The wreckage of our past. I don't think anyone carrying that kind of baggage has a chance of living a spiritual life. I know I didn't.



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Angell wrote:
The spiritual awakening happens over the course of working the remainder of the steps.  In some cases I hear it said that the spiritual awakening happens working four through nine. 

This is what they say in step ten.....Talking about steps four through nine. Page 85

Much has already been said about receiving strength, inspiration, and direction from Him who has all knowledge and power. If we have carefully followed directions, we have begun to sense the flow of His Spirit into us. To some extent we have become God-conscious. We have begun to develop this vital sixth sense.

That sounds like what we are shooting for right there.



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Stepchild wrote:
Angell wrote:
The spiritual awakening happens over the course of working the remainder of the steps.  In some cases I hear it said that the spiritual awakening happens working four through nine. 

This is what they say in step ten.....Talking about steps four through nine. Page 85

Much has already been said about receiving strength, inspiration, and direction from Him who has all knowledge and power. If we have carefully followed directions, we have begun to sense the flow of His Spirit into us. To some extent we have become God-conscious. We have begun to develop this vital sixth sense.

That sounds like what we are shooting for right there.


*nods*  Agreed; that is what it says.  My experience was rather burning bush in nature...I called out on day three...couldn't live with or without alcohol, body collapsing, mind tortured, spirit shattered...and then all the pain was gone.  As was the obsession. 

It was before formal step work but my crying out that day was as sincere a third step as could be made in my opinion.  I was not made to wait.  Not to say I was good at hearing my HP... my eyes had cobwebs and my ears were plugged.  Kind of why I like hanging out with newcomers today - the miracles are loud.  HP breaks out all the bells and whistles to get their attention.  Fun to watch. :)



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I always remember things that make sense to me.....I heard a guy say one time...

Steps 4, 5 and 6...We face what is blocking us.

Steps 7, 8 and 9 we remove it.

I think people have spiritual experiences throughout this process.....But when they talk about your house being in order....And having your relationship with your HP being right.....That takes action. That's just my experience.

I don't know exactly when the obsession was lifted for me.....Somewhere after the fifth step....It was gone. I'm sure it's different for people. It's amazing...Whenever it happens.



-- Edited by Stepchild on Tuesday 12th of August 2014 11:02:47 PM

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It is an interesting topic for sure, one that I COULD NOT/WOULD NOT see for many years, in and out of the rooms. The "why" to my slow progress is only known for sure by my maker, but I assure you there were plenty of people willing to offer up their opinion as to "why" ole Bob ain't gitten it. I love what has taking place in my heart and soul as the result of hanging in there, and finally taking actions I did not believe in, however long it took. What I have taken from my journey up to this point is that it is non of MY biz what another is or is not doing,  or are they or are they not doing the steps. I have a role to play and playing God isn't it. It is very easy and very human to wanna revel in my spiritual loftiness. However, I find that position, detrimental to my growth and more importantly, to the growth of others. As long as I do my part, carry THE message and allow others to be, mine and their best interests will be taken care of. Learning this principle of minding my own business, is a painful, challenging trek, but hey, Spiritual characture buiding is not about comfort.



-- Edited by Robert Chavez on Saturday 16th of August 2014 09:16:43 AM

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Robert Chavez wrote:

What I have taken from my journey up to this point is that it is non of MY biz what another is or is not doing,  or are they or are they not doing the steps. I have a role to play and playing God isn't it. It is very easy and very human to wanna revel in my spiritual loftiness. However, I find that position, detrimental to my growth and more importantly, to the growth of others. As long as I do my part, carry THE message and allow others to be, mine and their best interests will be taken care of. Learning this principle of minding my own business, is a painful, challenging trek, but hey, Spiritual characture buiding is not about comfort.


Welcome to the site Robert...We all have our own experiences....I believe God put some people in my life that saw the pain I was in when I entered into AA...That did care about whether I was working the steps or not. I believe he put them there to kick this alcoholic in the ass....As needed. I wasn't in and out of the rooms for years....I don't think I would have lived through that....I've seen some that didn't. I'm very close to these people that nudged me along....I can't thank them enough. It's kind of funny how that works. I'm glad you are here Robert....I'm glad you made it.



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