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Post Info TOPIC: Can I be successful without religion?


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Can I be successful without religion?
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Hello everyone,

I have been doing research on A.A. and have been reading many of your lovely posts, hoping to figure if it is possible for me to be successful in it without religion. I see the 12 step program and there is much to do with giving yourself over to G-d. I am not asking this because i do not believe in G-d, but I am asking if having wavering thoughts and feelings towards G-d and I do not want my base for change to be something that is not strong. 

Thoughts?

Thank you all very much. 



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MIP Old Timer

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First of all ....This is a spiritual program...not a religious program...If it was? I wouldn't be here...

God...can be anything from Good Orderly Direction...To a Spiritual Higher Power..of your understanding..but we refer to Him as God..as we understand Him

Quite simply a Power greater then ourselves...AA as a whole..is also a Power greater then myself..

Myself?..Couldn't do it..re religion

So...Its to each their own...but we do it together..

The Big Book is a good book to read..plus The 12 steps and 12 Traditions



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MIP Old Timer

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rp01921 wrote:

Hello everyone,

I have been doing research on A.A. and have been reading many of your lovely posts, hoping to figure if it is possible for me to be successful in it without religion. I see the 12 step program and there is much to do with giving yourself over to G-d. I am not asking this because i do not believe in G-d, but I am asking if having wavering thoughts and feelings towards G-d and I do not want my base for change to be something that is not strong. 

Thoughts?

Thank you all very much. 


Welcome to MIP ...rp01921. I hope the research you are doing includes the book Alcoholics Anonymous...The Big Book. That covers your question better than I've ever heard it explained. I think chapter 4...The chapter to the agnostic is probably the finest piece of spiritual writing I've ever read. Here it is if you are interested.

http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_44.htm

That fact that you believe in God...Or are even willing to... is a major bonus for you..I've seen people make it in this program that didn't. I'm not religious myself....But I have a strong faith in God....Only made stronger by taking the action of and living in...The 12 steps. This program is about finding a power greater than ourselves that will solve our problem. That book is a set of clear cut directions on how that is done....The 12 steps. Glad you are here....Any questions....Fire away. 

 



-- Edited by Stepchild on Tuesday 22nd of April 2014 06:19:13 PM

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MIP Old Timer

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Welcome to MIP rp0, ...

the posts following yours are right on the mark ... religion is not from God anyway, it's man-made ... Spirituality is from God and anyone who so chooses to acknowledge Him as a 'higher power' is one step closer to knowing the truth about the universe than many others ... (my personal opinion)

If you do believe in God, and are an alcoholic like we are, then you have crossed over a major hurdle already ... you said you were doing research ??? ... it would be interesting to know what led you to do so ... we like these type stories, please tell us more !!! ...


Love ya and God Bless,
Pappy



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MIP Old Timer

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Welcome to the board! Great responses to your question. I didn't have much of any faith in God when I first started AA. I do now and that is Who I chose as my HP. You get to choose what your Higher Power is to you. That is the beauty of AA. I have heard different people say their HP's were people in the rooms of AA, a doorknob, one of their kids. I was powerless over alcohol when I started AA....as most all alcoholics are.....although a doorknob was not my choice of a HP, I've never seen one drink, so I guess in that sense it had more power over it than I did.

BTY

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MIP Old Timer

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I don't know BTY...I think if a doorknob is a power greater than they are...They have some more serious problems than alcohol. And no human power could relieve our alcoholism.....That leaves the kids out. God could...And would....If he were sought. That's it.....Take it or leave it.

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MIP Old Timer

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I gotta "leave" that one, stepchild. Oh, I believe and pray to God. I have heard that even oldtimers in the rooms started believing in something like those things I mentioned and then the more meetings they went to, some of them changed. However not all of them believe in God and they are staying sober.

And I'll "leave" it at that because I don't want someone who doesn't believe in God thinking there is no use in giving AA a try because of that nor do I wish to get any posters on here upset with me, and that includes you. Just my own opinion, take it or leave it. (Big smile).




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It's pretty clear....That our solution is a power greater than we are. They use the words God....The Great Reality.....Spirit of the Universe.....among others.....Call it what you want.....Nice thing is...It can be your own perception of God. But it is a power we find by working those steps...And it is God. I don't shy away from that. This older lady says in my meeting....If God scares them out....Booze will bring them back.

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MIP Old Timer

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Aloha ArePee...this is simply how it worked for me when I got into recovery with the same fears you have.  I had the same set as Philip...If it was another religion I wasn't going to make it and then a power greater than myself gave me another perspective which I understood and have kept since 1979.  The perspective is "We are not a religion and if we practice the steps religiously...."  Get it?  I practice the steps as I have accepted them as a way of life which I was born into...a recovery culture which by the way is very very close to the culture I was born and raised in...I have a higher power which is what I made contact with inside of my culture.  My Higher Power is Akua...the god of all gods.  That is for me and now there is no confusion or anxiety (thats been done for years now).  The steps and the process of learning this program are very very much like the ethical morals as handed to me by the elders in fact I was sharing with another member yesterday that when I got into recovery I was simply told to "sit down, shut up (cause I didn't know anything about recovery), listen, learn and practice, practice, practice.  After I started getting it I was told that to insure myself that I was learning and the program was working I was to share what I was taught and practicing with other newcomers and to watch them work it and when they did I could see that the program worked.  That is what worked for me.  Welcome to the board...stick in the program all experiences can help others.   smile



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If I tweak what I say for fear of scaring people away, then I think I'm God again ;) My truth is all I have to offer anyone else. I can not bend it, minimize it or embellish it, and be living the principles of this program. That only lands me back in self bondage. I have nothing to prove, and as soon as I try do and try to 'sell it', or sell myself, all my character flaws resurface and start chaining me down. People pleasing, trying fix and control outcomes, thinking I'm God again, Ego, Fishing for affirmation from sources other than God etc. All I have to be is me, and offer my truth and leave the results to the God I will never ever understand.

I believed in the power of the group to start. It kept me sober for 24 hours. That was longer than I was capable of doing on my own - so it was the proof I needed before I was able to begin taking my own real leaps of faith with the help and solid footing the step work offered. Turns out, stepping through the door itself was the leap of faith I needed - and I can't say that I am responsible for the way and the how of that happening. It's clear to me now that it was God's doing not mine or anyone elses... and in that way I can see too that it was just my time. I had a terrible first meeting, but the people there weren't in charge, and they weren't God - so they didn't have the power to keep me there or keep me out of there.




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MIP Old Timer

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I don't believe in the god I was taught about in school. I don't believe in any god as expressed by another human being. I don't go to church for other than my own pleasures or wants or needs. I'm not religious. I will defend anyone of any religion the right to follow that religion. I'm sober. I do have a power greater than me.....of my own understanding. ...and it's simple......and for simplicity I call that power god.....and my understanding is simple too.....I asked for help in step 3 having came to believe that I could be helped in step two. can you get and stay sober without religion. ....absolutely. can you get and stay sober without faith....probably. can you get and stay sober without willingness to believe there is a power greater than yourself.....in my opinion....probably not long term, probably not satisfyingly.

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Oh and I was advised to be sure that this power is not a living person.....they all leave you.....nor a material object....they all break.

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To answer your question, yes. Use whatever Higher Power you believe in. The Big Book does not say that no human power could of relieved our alcoholism, it says that 'probably' no human power could of relieved our alcoholism. For me I used the good olde Group Of Drunks. The key was willingness. I had to believe that The Fellowship, and the 12 steps, would work for me for which I could not do for myself, which was not drinking.

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Db1105 wrote:

The Big Book does not say that no human power could of relieved our alcoholism, it says that 'probably' no human power could of relieved our alcoholism.


 probably: almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell; very likely

It also says...

Lack of power, that was our dilemma. We had to find a power by which we could live, and it had to be a Power greater than ourselves. Obviously. But where and how were we to find this Power?

Well, that's exactly what this book is about. Its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem. That means we have written a book which we believe to be spiritual as well as moral. And it means, of course, that we are going to talk about God. Here difficulty arises with agnostics. Many times we talk to a new man and watch his hope rise as we discuss his alcoholic problems and explain our fellowship. But his face falls when we speak of spiritual matters, especially when we mention God, for we have re-opened a subject which our man thought he had neatly evaded or entirely ignored.

pg 45

I'm not a firm believer in trying to hide the elephant in the room.



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The old Priest at the recovery home in 1989 said "God works through people". So ......

1) probably no human power could of relieved our alcoholism.
2) God works through people
3) God could and would if He were sought


God's power works "through" us to the others and others to us (if I get out of the way) :0

All the best.

Bob R.

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MIP Old Timer

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I didn't see that part in the book Bob. Sometimes I wonder...Why the success rate in early AA was so much better. It almost seems to me....Something got lost in the message along the way.

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MIP Old Timer

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The times have changed. We can't get five cent candybars anymore either.

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What the book does say is....

(a) That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives.
(b) That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism.
(c) That God could and would if He were sought.

Those are the first two steps. The first thing my sponsor told me was....Your problem is...You have no power...And you need a new manager. I understood exactly what he meant. I guess I was just ready.



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MIP Old Timer

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I agree Bob....God as we understand Him...works through us....We hafta give it away to keep it..

I don't think the message has changed any...Step

In earlier days...most of AAs were low bottom drunks..and AAs today are more open minded...and ARE still staying sober re the 12 steps..The ones that are deadly serious

We are getting ...as Ive mentioned before..Maybe I ams...and those that have NOT lost everything...Court ordered...Those that are in the rooms... with ulterior motives..Those that are serious for a few weeks..and start feeling better..and go out and try it on again..

That why the recovering and stay recovered numbers are down...and that's straight from New York

AA is for those that want it....not the ones that need it..

It still works if you work it :)



-- Edited by Philipld on Thursday 24th of April 2014 06:21:37 AM

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I was just reading page 55 tonight...there's a lovely lady in Orlando who spoke about how she traveled the world to find God.

She returns, (with some wonderful experiences no doubt) and tells her sponsor she didn't exactly "find God."

Her sponsor says, "You didn't have to go all over the world, you can find God is in the Big Book, page 55."

Page 55 Paragraph 2:

"Actually, we were fooling ourselves, for deep down in every man, woman, and child, is the fundamental idea of God.
It may be obscured by calamity, by pomp, by worship of other things, but in some form or other it is there."

It goes on to say, "We finally saw that faith in some kind of God was a part of our make-up, just as much as the feeling we have for a friend."

I got really stuck on the part about "...just as much as the feeling we have for a friend." and my God my life is FULL of amazing human beings I can call friends today.

My best friend is someone who 1)I can't say I know everything about. 2)I'm not him 3)But I know he's real.

Love is something I can't touch or taste or but we ALL have felt it in some form or another, we know it's there.

It goes on to say:

"He was as much a fact as we were. We found the Great Reality deep down within us."

Oh and that nice lady with 28 years sober...she says, "Thanks, that could have saved me about twenty grand!"

lol

-Love you guys. Thanks for helping me stay sober.



-- Edited by JKillen on Friday 25th of April 2014 12:21:51 AM

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Love you too j

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MIP Old Timer

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Welcome to MIP JK ... loved your post .... it's one of my favorite passages in the BB too ... I've used it often ...

 

Love ya and God Bless,

Pappy



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MIP Old Timer

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Welcome RP

step 2 "Came to believe"

yes it says came to believe , it does not say We Have to believe

or if or when , Maybe in time you may come to believe In a Power Greater

than yourself . In AA , most of us like to Keep things simple , not to be confused

with easy - Keeping it simple -

A Power greater than myself.

Higher Power

God.

I Too , do Not do religion .

For me , it is a "power that understands Me" . This HAS worked for me for nearly 28yrs

If it ain't broke , why fix it



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Rick.

@ 37 I was too young & good looking to be an alkie.

still too young , still got th good looks. still n alkie.

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