What causes women in AA to prey on other women who show vulnerabilities?
I most often see this among those who concider themselves to be the most knowlegable, spiritual crowd, the ones who claim their way is the best way.
. . .
When and if it actually occurs, I think this phenomenom is not gender dependent.
What causes it (for both men and women) is a power asymmetry between experienced, savvy, confident, med/long-sober AAers, especially of evangelistic bent and hurting, weak, tentative and non-aggressive newbie AAers.
Strong vs. weak.
The classic motivation.
odat wrote:
. . .
I know this is part of human nature, but can anyone explain what kind of person does this - and what they are looking for?
What kind?:
Evangelistic, A-types.
Looking for?:
Power. Status.
And easy wins.
-- Edited by Tanin on Wednesday 18th of July 2012 01:45:43 PM
What causes women in AA to prey on other women who show vulnerabilities?
You know, like people who use their share to "subtly" cut down the previous share of someone who hadn't sounded confident. Or people who try to get someone with trust issues to trust them, only to end up playing mind games with them or ultimately reject them with a silence to put them into psychological pain.
I most often see this among those who concider themselves to be the most knowlegable, spiritual crowd, the ones who claim their way is the best way.
I know this is part of human nature, but can anyone explain what kind of person does this - and what they are looking for?
They accomplished want they set out to do ... ... ... They got into your head and took a seat ... you invited them there ... you can just as easily un-invite them ... There is no need to let others 'rent' space in your head unless you want them there ...
Take what you can use from a meeting and leave the rest ... Whatever else is left in your head is only there by invitation only ... Call your sponsor if it bothers you, but simply 'dump' those thoughts in the next trash can ... if you must, write down what you didn't like, that bothers you ... say a little prayer and toss the paper in the trash ... there, it gone ... just don't invite the negativity back ...
And please don't waste time trying to analyze the other persons motives, it doesn't matter ... who give a sh_t what they're looking for??? ...
just do the next right thing you know to do ...
Pappy
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
Some people just do this. dont let it bother you. I was in a meeting where a woman slandered me for no reason when she spoke, Im a guy but its the same thing. Its hard when your recovering but dont let it bother you, its just junk.
I remember when I used to hang out in bars people did the same sh!t....It may be the same ones in your meetings....I didn't pay any attention to them in bars....And I'm sure not going to pay any attention to them in meetings.
I agree..some people I've met in aa still behave in the same way as when they were drinking (trying to "one up" others or manipulate). Some women are catty, gossipy, or competitive. I assume that they will eventually move beyond that behavior, but who knows? I've struggled (and continue to) try to focus on all the great, kind and supportive people, though it can be difficult.
I find that, daily, God sees fit to remove more layers of denial from my vision. As I continue to work this program, God continues to provide me with relief from this bondage of self. Perhaps the key word there is "continue." Some of us, in recovering,decide that we have recovered and stop practicing the principles that gave us relief to begin with.
If this issue is really getting to you, approach one of these women directly after a meeting and tell her your take on the issue. It is possible that she doesn't even know she is acting out and if that is the case, she will be grateful that you have pointed out her need to continue to take personal inventory. If she does not appreciate your observations, you will at least know that you tried to address a situation which clearly bothers you.
What I love about this program is, it works. Faith without works is dead.
__________________
"And we have ceased fighting anything or anyone-even alcohol. For by this time sanity will have returned."
Alcoholics Anonymous, Page 84
An addict is WHAT I am but it does not define all of WHO I am.
What causes it (for both men and women) is a power asymmetry between experienced, savvy, confident, med/long-sober AAers, especially of evangelistic bent and hurting, weak, tentative and non-aggressive newbie AAers.
Strong vs. weak.
Looking for?:
Power. Status.
And easy wins.
-- Edited by Tanin on Wednesday 18th of July 2012 01:45:43 PM
I beg to differ. Those who prey on the sick are hardly confident or strong. They are cowardly and pitiable. The "win" is imaginary, there is no game. No race, no finish line, no award ceremony, nothing.
I recall a saying about aggressors -- "They are at your throat or on their knees."
They accomplished want they set out to do ... ... ... They got into your head and took a seat ... you invited them there ... you can just as easily un-invite them ... There is no need to let others 'rent' space in your head unless you want them there ...
Take what you can use from a meeting and leave the rest ... Whatever else is left in your head is only there by invitation only ... Call your sponsor if it bothers you, but simply 'dump' those thoughts in the next trash can ... if you must, write down what you didn't like, that bothers you ... say a little prayer and toss the paper in the trash ... there, it gone ... just don't invite the negativity back ...
And please don't waste time trying to analyze the other persons motives, it doesn't matter ... who give a sh_t what they're looking for??? ...
just do the next right thing you know to do ...
Pappy
I agree with Pappy. These people have other issues besides alcoholism, so pay them no mind. You might be new to A.A, but you're not new to the world, it's that simple. So do the next right thing and leave the rest there, period. If you do just that, the right thing will happen to you.
I do not see predators in AA simply because I refuse to be a victim.
It would be just as easy to say "What kind of person goes to AA to be overly focused on other's motives and to hand away their serenity on a platter? What kind of person does this? What are they looking for?
That may sound harsh, but I will tell you that in the time I have been in AA, I have been given the hugs, the shoulders to cry on....BUT, I also had people tell me to grow up, that they would not cosign my "bulls**t, and to look at my own role in conflicts before I point the finger at anyone else. Good thing there are both challenging folks and nurturing folks in AA cuz I definitely needed both and continue to.
Is it possible that you perceive cutdowns instead of constructive criticism? The spiritual axiom states that when I have a problem with someone else, the problem is with me. What is your role in these interpersonal relationships?
Most of the time when I am bothered by others, it totally is a reflection of me and my mental state. I friggin hate it when that humbling "lesson" comes to me cuz it's usually when I want to be right or I want to be validated.
If you want to spend time searching for negative things in others, why not worry about why there are rapists and murderers? Far more people want to hurt others outside the rooms than inside. Yes, AA is not immune from 13th steppers, scam artists....but I can recognize that when I see it. I don't need to worry about it. In general, I would venture to say that just about nobody goes to AA with the pure intention to prey on others. Sometimes we can be abrasive and sometimes we do challenge each other. Most of us are big babies on the inside that cannot handle criticism and we need a giant dose of humility. This absolutely includes yours truly.
Hence, if you perceive this to be insensitive or predatory, then you have your answer - that person is me and they do it to get you to change and to see your role in things so you can be free from the bondage of self.
__________________
Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
I have described this dilemma before: I go to certain AA meetings where people really know the literature and many become great speakers, etc. There's almost a sort of "pecking order" and there are a lot of egos.
My sponsor could no longer be available to work with me so I asked about 10 women over the last year and a half to help a little, just a phone call a week even. I have been in a lot of pain and just needed a little support. Every single one of the people said yes, only to play games with me to see if I would trust myself and then -- bam! Slam me down in rejection and take my power. It's a way to feed their egos.
It is all done very quietly and behind the scenes and I know if they're doing it to me, they're doing it to others. If you want to kill an alcoholic in pain, give him a real good resentment.
These people know I am alone and don't think I would have the courage to say or do anything about it, but at this point I have to say I am thinking of exposing one of them in a meeting in front of everyone.
There are lives at stake in these rooms, this is not a game, and it has hurt me badly. Would you say something?
**This is you again Cross talk in meetings Reply Quote
Anyone experience sharing your experience in a meeting then having ot torn down by someone else afterwards in their share?
I get this a lot because I don't really have the courage to be myself, even though I really know the program of recovery. I am also an attractive women who the other women don't seem to like much. I have a lot of potential and feel they are trying to keep me from it in order to keep their own comfort and security ok.
After you do something several times and have the same problems again and again and again - How much are you willing to concede that the problem is related to your insecurity and trust issues and it's not about them? Do you really want to live your life constantly perceiving that others are out to get you and hurt you. For real - I am asking out of concern and caring because I really think it must suck to constantly feel attacked and victimized. I really pray that you focus on that so that you don't have to keep getting hurt.
__________________
Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
The spiritual axiom states that when I have a problem with someone else, the problem is with me.
That's not exactly what Bill W. said about the (his) spiritual axiom. And the difference between what he actually wrote and the above interpretation is crucial . . .
"It is a spiritual axiom that every time we are disturbed, no matter what the cause, there is something wrong with us." 12 & 12, p. 90
If anything, I gave too loose of a definition because this would encompass all problems that disturb me and not just those with others. Either way, my use of the axiom would appear valid. If I missed a crucial element, please share because that would benefit me to know so that I won't keep spreading my ignorance.
__________________
Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
I have to remember that the grouch and the brainstorm are not for me either...and controlling others is playing God. Page 94 12&12 says something like, we think our job is to teach someone a lesson when really the motive is to punish someone (usually because we're mad at someone else.) In doing this, we hide a bad motive under a good motive.
The Spiritual Principle is Live and Let Live, for one.
We justify ourselves by telling ourselves we're being "helpful"...
And why would someone disturb us to the point that we would pull them beneath us? (self-seeking) I'll tell you why: we are all each other's mirrors! Seeing low self-esteem reminds others of themselves. It's also a way to create false self-esteem.
In other words, we all have problems.
I do experience this quite often but I know (speaking of pg 417) that everything is perfect in God's world, I just have to see what He wants me to see. I know I am using these resentments to NOT do something I know I should be doing, so I got a little more done with it in the last few days.
I have been taught, by my spiritual teachers as well as experience, that we are, ultimately, all the same. If a butterfly flapping it's wings in Brazil can set off a tornado in Texas two weeks later then a random, seemingly insignificant occurance in my life could alter my life and course in unimaginable ways as well. I'm not a big fan of cops, but I don't doubt for a moment that any one of an infinite number of random possibilities could have occurred that would have resulted in me proudly wearing a badge right now, or a prison jumpsuit, or monastic robes, etc.
I could have be that person in the meeting - but as the saying goes: 'But for the grace of God' So to answer your question with my opinion...what type of person does this? The human type - one that has simply lived a different set of circumstances than I have.
What causes it (for both men and women) is a power asymmetry between experienced, savvy, confident, med/long-sober AAers, especially of evangelistic bent and hurting, weak, tentative and non-aggressive newbie AAers.
Strong vs. weak.
Looking for?:
Power. Status.
And easy wins.
-- Edited by Tanin on Wednesday 18th of July 2012 01:45:43 PM
I beg to differ. Those who prey on the sick are hardly confident or strong. They are cowardly and pitiable. The "win" is imaginary, there is no game. No race, no finish line, no award ceremony, nothing.
I recall a saying about aggressors -- "They are at your throat or on their knees."
Confident and cowardly are not contradictories. They're not even contraries. Individuals can be both confidentandcowardly. And can be strongandpitiable. At the same time!
The wins are very real--in the minds of the types that are being discussed here.
I find it particularly atrocious that such types prey on individuals (newbies, especially) who are in a weak position/state of mind. I think that some (many?) of their victims run.
Great discussion, thanks. I happened to read the 24-Hour-a-Day book (a helpful book I have come to love more than ever) and all week it's been talking about how it's wrong to to what these people do but it's also wrong to think badly of them in my head. Both are hurtful.
A google search brought up this posting so I thought I'd respond.
I deal with the same thing.
An older longtime lady told me years ago that attractive women are commodities in AA and if you're smart too or have other things, maybe sweet or wealthy or a family of status etc...it's gonna get serious, you're a threat.
I learned in the steps that I have to protect myself from drinking. That means addressing issues like slander head-on. Things like that can become so big that you end up alone and unable to earn a living - then drunk. It can kill you if you let it get big enough.
Isn't your life worth speaking up?
People who haven't dealt with this type of thing typically aren't a threat and can't see it's all over AA.
Address it before you get sick or you'll have everyone dumping their sh-t on you.
We all wanna act like a hero online. lol. If it happened to you, you wouldn't think it was so easy.
We are so used to fight or flight or freeze - that we are too scared to confront.
But confrontation is tricky. You have to have real tools to do it, and a lot of courage.
It can be done.
I was told not to let narcissists steal pieces of me -- deal with it immediately - speaking up in the right way.
We all wanna act like a hero online. lol. If it happened to you, you wouldn't think it was so easy. We are so used to fight or flight or freeze - that we are too scared to confront. But confrontation is tricky. You have to have real tools to do it, and a lot of courage.
It can be done.
I was told not to let narcissists steal pieces of me -- deal with it immediately - speaking up in the right way.
God doesn't want us to suffer.
Not sure where you live but most cities and towns have a variety of meetings. It's very possible to go to several dozen meetings and
not be in the same meeting more than once a week. Avoid sharing personal information, work closely with a sponsor and avoid local
meeting politics. This can prove difficult at first, because we all crave attention, but we are not here for that, we're here to get sober.
Yes the fellowship part of the program is important, chose your friends wisely. The rooms are full of sick people trying
to get better. Some are sicker than others.
-- Edited by StPeteDean on Monday 30th of March 2015 09:36:33 AM
That is true, but at some point we have to have relationships. That means no more running and asking questions with respect, "What do you mean by that?" etc
Speaking up with love so we can consistently go to the same places and be ourselves.
We alkies get sick in self sometimes and it's ok to tap people on the shoulder with kindness.
Sometimes I have to say "none of your business and if you ask me one more time ill sew your lips shut, really I will" :)
Or "I respect your right to have an opinion. Mine is different. Let's discuss it and see if we can't come to a higher opinion."
Or "You're right. I'm selfish". Or, "I'm afraid." "Why else would I be at an Alcoholxs Anonymous meeting? If you have no fear or selfishness left my hat is off to you."
When I'm spoken to I respond. I'm an adult.
If I'm not myself how can I be of service.?
And kindness is a must. A true AA never exemplifies anything that could even be construed as controlling.
These days, the few meetings that I do attend, I half way snooze through them, listening of course. I rarely ever share anymore, as I've found that most members are expecting you to cite chapter and verse. My recovery spans over 4 programs and 4 decades (got sober in '89) and includes lots of non-AA books. So when I share it's more of a universal truth and the AA-nazis don't like that
-- Edited by StPeteDean on Monday 30th of March 2015 03:20:24 PM
Odat/Makingwaves - Sounds like AA is really crappy where you are at...awful lot of negative people that seem to want to bring you down. Most folks I encountered were helpful. Of course there are sick people and sometimes I'm one of them, but mostly, the fellowship is good....more than good. Sometimes I will catch myself in a meeting thinking negatively about my fellows. Most of the time that is something for me to work on. Narcissists don't have the power to take anything from me because I am me and I am whole regardless. I don't want to spend time or waste time perceiving being slighted all the time because then the beauty of life will pass me by and I will also be too busy wrapped up in self and the way people are treating me to focus on a newcomer that might need help.
Well said PC. My theory about perceived transgressions is that it's a "buy and sell" relationship. If I'm buying in on the one hand, I must be selling it on the other hand ala "You spot it, you got it"or "if one finger is pointing the other three are pointing back at you". If I'm feeling that others are judging me, then I am most likely judging others, as I'm believing in this mentality.
-- Edited by StPeteDean on Wednesday 1st of April 2015 09:41:48 AM
