LINKS
MIP Home Page

A.A. Group Home Page
A.A. Meeting/Chat Room
Site Technical Problems or Questions?
Step Work Board - A Step each week!
Online Meeting Schedules
Music to Enjoy while here!


**By clicking the "Donate" graphic above you will be taken to paypal.com where you can make a donation amount of your choice to ensure this site stays fully self supporting through its members contributions. Any amount you donate will be appreciated and valued. Thank you!


Alcoholics Anonymous Group
Message Board

Online Meetings
Tuesday and Saturday Nites at 9Pm Eastern Time!
Saturday Morning 11AM est

Twelve Steps
and

Twelve Traditons

Alcoholics Anonymous
Big Book

Living Sober
Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
Post Info TOPIC: 90 meetings in 90 days


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 9
Date:
90 meetings in 90 days
Permalink  
 


Rarely have we seen a person fail who has throughly followed our path....

Half measures availed us nothing....

In my experience I have seen that people who do 90 in 90 typically stick around longer. I think it shows commitment to recovery and hope that there is a solution. People who refuse to do 90 in 90 typically relapse and/ or don't return to the rooms.

I'm curious.... how many of you "old timers" did 90 in 90? And how many of you didn't?

Thanks :)

Violet xo

http://godisdoingforuswhatwecouldnotdoforourselves.wordpress.com/

 



__________________


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 230
Date:
Permalink  
 

My first sponser said to me that 90 and 90 was something that came out of treatment centers. He said it was good advice, but since I was not working and there were other meetings I could get to, my ass better be in every one I could get to. I did that for years. For eight or nine years I made 7 to 12 meetings a week and 2 of those were jail and detox meetings. Its not that I needed that many, I only needed 3 or so I just didn't know which ones they were. Making that many meetings for that long gave me a habit that has saved my ass more then once. It allowed me to be apart of and not just a visitor. I'm grateful that I did and tell new guys the same thing I was told. AA don't happen on the couch so get to a meeting and help someone, jackass. Love that old guy.

__________________

                   Since it cost a lot to win, and even more to loose, you and me gotta spend some time just wondering what to choose. 



Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 266
Date:
Permalink  
 

I've done a number of 90 in 90's over the years to kick start my program, it's sound advice regardless of where it originated. Science has proven that it does take 90 days to change a habit by replacing it with something else, so 90 in 90 hits on many levels, one is able to find the meetings they like, meet a lot of people, immerse themself in the program, it's just good solid recovery and it shows willingness and a determination to go to any length, without these qualities sobriety is tenuous at best, but generally speaking folks who won't commit to 90 in 90 won't commit to sobriety in my experience, it's not a magic bullet by any means, but it's a good solid rung on the ladder to a successful sobriety

__________________

Light a man a fire and he's warm for a night, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life



MIP Old Timer

Status: Offline
Posts: 3688
Date:
Permalink  
 

I did it. If you can't give that much to your recovery to start out with, recovery isn't that important to you.

__________________
Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!


MIP Old Timer

Status: Offline
Posts: 7451
Date:
Permalink  
 

My last return to AA was a 'do it OR die' situation ... so, I did 8-9-10 meetings a week for almost two years ... My sponsor said I was 'sicker' than most ... so my 1st 90-in-90 was just the start for me ... It quickly became a habit and I started looking forward to the meetings and went every chance I got ... @ the 2 year mark, more life changes occurred, and I had to find 'balance' ... Now-a-days ... I typically make 3 sometimes four meetings a week ... Except!!!

Except when I pick up a new sponsee, then I feel doing the 90-in-90 with him is very important ... it lets me know if the guy is serious or not ... and it lets him know that I EXPECT TO SEE HIM THERE ... LOL

Pappy



__________________

"Life offers no guarantees ... just choices; no certainty ... but consequences; no predictable outcomes ... just the privilege of pursuit."    -Tim Conner



MIP Old Timer

Status: Online
Posts: 2689
Date:
Permalink  
 

I'n not an old timer but I am about to celebrate a year without alcohol...I'm happy about that. I did 180+ meetings my first 90 days...And I still do six or seven meetings a week. I just like meetings....I made the steps my priority in the first 90 days and that was important to me. I heard once it takes 60 days of doing something to make it a habit...And since we are alcoholics...90 is better. I recommend it. They remind me of what I am and where I came from and also give me a chance to offer hope to a newcomer....Something that I received from the first meeting I attended.

__________________

When all else fails...Follow the directions.



MIP Old Timer

Status: Offline
Posts: 3387
Date:
Permalink  
 

I'm a day away from doing 90x90 and If I'm given a few more 24hrs - I will some day suggest this to my sponsee's.

__________________

 I may have been sober before today, But I've never been sober today before :)  



Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 9
Date:
Permalink  
 

Thanks so much for these wonderful responses!

I recently moved back to the UK to a city with a very small fellowship. Few of them have worked the steps, fewer still talk about the importance of 90 in 90. Reading your comments is refreshing and motivating.

Please keep them coming.

Violet xo

ps. a massive congratulations to Tasha and Stepchild! Keep coming back :)



-- Edited by Violet260709 on Sunday 24th of June 2012 12:21:29 PM

__________________


MIP Old Timer

Status: Offline
Posts: 6257
Date:
Permalink  
 

It worked for me, after relapsing dozens of times in the first two years. If we've got time to drink several hours a day, we can certainly spend an hour in a meeting.

__________________

 







Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 324
Date:
Permalink  
 

I did 387 meetings in my first ninety days. I didn't know what to do when I wasn't drinking or doing drugs so I went to all of them. As for how important it is...I don't know. Fact is, people come in at all stages. Could a high bottom drunk miss a few meetings in order to work oevrtime at the job they've been able to maintain throughout their drinking career - or to make a ballgame their son or daughter was playing in? I suspect so but would suggest replacing that meeting loss with something - a longer than normal talk with one's sponsor that day. An hour reading the BB, meditating or doing some step work when time is available but a meeting is not.

I've seen people panic that their going to miss a meeting and not be able to do their 90 in 90 when in fact they had a good, responsible reason for not going to a meeting that day which had nothing to do with their not taking their sobriety seriously enough - and I don't think that stress is necessary.

__________________


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 339
Date:
Permalink  
 

My first year, I was a senior in high school, had a part time job, and used my bike as transport. I made my 90x90, and argued with my sponsor the first 30 days. "I'm bored" I'd say... But then she'd ask me what else I would be doing, and I'd usually reply something like watching tv, and she'd ask me how I'd know where to meet up with others after the meeting if I didn't go to the meeting. And I so enjoy coffee with other recoverers. This time around I make a meeting 3x a week, and I stick to the type of meetings I'm inclined to go to (step, big book, tradition). Every one is different, and wether you go to acclimate to a new life style, or because you aren't sure and need to do a bit of harmless recovery research, the 90x90 gives a damn good impression of what this recovery thing is about.

__________________
sober: showing no excessive or extreme qualities of fancy, emotion, or prejudice


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 10
Date:
Permalink  
 

My sponsor had me initially work on 30 in 30 and go from there. Seems less daunting that way.

__________________


MIP Old Timer

Status: Offline
Posts: 1018
Date:
Permalink  
 

I reckon I did about 80 in 90 and it didn't seem to do any harm. Towards the end the fog began to clear a bit and I was then in a position to decide if I wanted what you had. I did and I went to any lengths to get it- i.e. I took the steps. "Rarely have we seen a person fail..." was written before meetings were common and certainly before 90 in 90 was thought of.

The single most important thing I did was get into the steps- this is the program. The meetings were fellowship and support but as a human entity, lacked the power to relieve my alcoholism. I think, in order to recover, we need to completely give ourselves to this simple program to the best of our ability. Maybe we can do 90 in 90 if we are in the right area, but we go to as many meetings as possible in our circumstance. We remain open minded and ask questions, we read the literature, we try our best to apply what we learn, and we keep trying.

Once we have decided we want what you have, we find a sponsor to show us through the steps. We don't waste time. "Half measures availed us nothing, we asked His protection and care with complete abandon. Here are the steps we took which are suggested as a programme of recovery." I have learned through observation and experience that, for alcoholics of my type, meetings alone are not sufficient. Some seem to think they are, that they have found an easier softer way but it is an illusion. Swapping one addiction (alcohol) for another (meetings) did not and could not have brought me the freedom I have today. Only the steps could do that.

God bless,
MikeH

__________________

Fyne Spirit

Walking with curiosity.



MIP Old Timer

Status: Offline
Posts: 3270
Date:
Permalink  
 

How many meetings did I attend during my first 90 days? As many as I could. But my sponsor wasn't as strict as others were. He wanted me to attend meetings on a regular basis (no specific amount), but within the first 90 days there were no set amount. They didn't have to run concurrently either, or have to be 90 exactly, just as many as I could in the beginning, that's all. I hope this helps.



__________________
Mr.David


MIP Old Timer

Status: Offline
Posts: 751
Date:
Permalink  
 

As many as I could in a small town and with no licence. Probably 60 in 90. That said when you travel an hour or so to get to meetings you get a three in one deal: one in the car on the way there, one there and a debriefing / reflection meeting on the way home.

__________________
I will be the best orange I can be


MIP Old Timer

Status: Online
Posts: 2689
Date:
Permalink  
 

Fyne Spirit wrote:

The single most important thing I did was get into the steps- this is the program. The meetings were fellowship and support but as a human entity, lacked the power to relieve my alcoholism.


 I totally agree with this...I've seen a lot of people do 90 in 90 and not make it. Not even get started on the steps.

With all the earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start.

They weren't talking about meetings when they wrote that. I needed meetings...It was a safe place for me where I couldn't get into trouble.....Stay with the herd. The steps are the solution.



__________________

When all else fails...Follow the directions.



MIP Old Timer

Status: Offline
Posts: 1436
Date:
Permalink  
 

I did as many as I could - but it wasn't 90 in 90. It started at one a week, then two, then 4, then 6 a week. i didn't count the days or the meetings, I know I got to as many as I could and managed to hold a job down. maybe if i had done 90 in 90, I wouldn't have stayed in a doomed (separated) marriage so long?

Pink, I have to object to the crassness of your statement - If you can't give that much to your recovery to start out with, recovery isn't that important to you - that is the biggest piece of big headed bullshit I've ever read - but that's only my opinion and like me you're entitled to yours, it's just as valid.........

Meetings are great, that's where I meet sober people, not so sober people, newcomers and relapsers......but the essence of recovery to me is Sponsor, Steps, Home Group, Step Group, the meetings are the icing on the cake. I've seen people doing 2 or 3 meetings a day, who didn't embrace the programme, who tried to go it alone without a sponsor, who didn't commit to a home group, who went out and drank and died.



__________________

It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you got.
BB

When all else fails - RTFM



Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 133
Date:
Permalink  
 

I also went to as many meetings as I could. The first year it was probably 5-7 a week, then it went to 5 a week, and recently it's been 2 a week because my schedule has changed. I have found over the many years I've been attending meetings, that the oldtimers don't always have the best advice.

__________________


MIP Old Timer

Status: Offline
Posts: 3688
Date:
Permalink  
 

I tend to forget that meetings are bountiful in southern florida. I forget I live in recovery central. There are over 700 meetings a week in the county I live in. So me being a big headed bullshitter was not my intention (thanks for the compliment Bill and you are lucky I have no feelings and am not human so now you have no need to do a 10th step).

Either way, it is good to be mindful of the way I say things. Other folks don't live in areas where there is a meeting at every church and where there are 5 clubhouses within a 10 mile radius. Refusing or being unwilling to do 90 in 90 here in South Florida is pretty telling.

I wouldn't want anyone to think that 90 in 90 is what makes the program work. Good thing I never said that. I'd be a total idiot if I tried to state that 90 in 90 is the most important thing in the program. The question was is it helpful? Did you do it? The answer to that is yes. I should have kept it at that.

If any newcomers read this - Just get to as many meetings as you can. There's no magic formula on AA. It's a spiritual program and growth is not quantifiable or measurable by the number of meetings you go to. Sponsorship, fellowship, stepwork, reading literature are all extremely important and I wouldn't advocate otherwise.

P.S. Saying "You are a dumbass and if you have a problem with that it's your problem and not mine" is not a sign of working a good program. I don't purposely attack others or cross talk like that and I'd be more concerned about the message that sends newcomers rather than anything about the importance of 90 in 90.

__________________
Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!


MIP Old Timer

Status: Offline
Posts: 3688
Date:
Permalink  
 

In addition: Doing that 90 in 90 is part of what saved my life. When I tried to argue the importance of it with my sponsor the response I got was "You had time to drink every day right?" That is what was said to me. Hence, I did go to a meeting every day. I am passing on what was said to me. I didn't make this crap up. I'm not that smart.

It did save my life though and that is real. Thx for crapping all over it Biker Bill.

__________________
Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 130
Date:
Permalink  
 

When I stopped drinking I had all kinds of idle time so I went to a couple of meetings a day for about the first six months. It provided me a great foundation of first not drinking, working and learning the steps, then being able to go out and become a productive member of scociety.

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 29
Date:
Permalink  
 

I think telling someone else to do 90 in 90 is bs.

I did 90 in 90 and I drank booze.

Also, you get nothing for doing 90 in 90. Then what do you do after that? Get a life back, do steps, and meet God?

How about, go to A.A., ask people there to help you find out if you're really an alcoholic or not... then find out if you really really want to quit booze for good and all or not... then act accordingly?

I go to one meeting a week. I've been continuously sober for going on 8 and a half years and I'm watching new folks come into our group and once in a great while, one sticks it out long enough to give the 12 Steps a try.

I go to an A.A. meeting to discuss my challenges and successes in doing steps and living a life sober and free of drugs and being in a state where I don't want to drink booze nor do drugs and I seek God.

Oh... but that's just me.

__________________

Don't have to be old to be wise - Judas Priest



MIP Old Timer

Status: Offline
Posts: 3688
Date:
Permalink  
 

You are right. That is just you McGowdog. It would not exist as a strong suggestion if it wasn't important and useful. I also only go to 2 meetings a week at the moment (almost 4 years later) but during my very first exposure to AA - yes, the 90 in 90 was helpful. It's meant for newcomers (though can be a useful tool later on too).

You are the exception if going to "less" meetings at the start was the answer to you. In the great majority of cases, people don't make AA a priority, they don't get to the 90 day mark before giving up...You can argue it's BS for you, but the utility of it as a whole is pretty undeniable. I could also relapse now - but it would have nothing to do with whether I did 90 and 90 or not. It would be from me forgetting step 1 and falling off the program completely. Had I not done the 90 and 90, I doubt I would have the time that I even have now. Anyhow, 90 in 90 is not a surefire way to build future long term sobriety. It's a useful way to absorb info and make a major lifestyle change which is discussed as needed (a major psychic shift) in the big book. Odds are, if you do it, you will be sober for 90 days. After that is a whole nother story.

Of course if you get a bunch of alcoholics together there will always be a few screaming "This is BS" to everything. Pretty much the same way a rational business meeting rarely takes place.

I remember when I came to MIP 4 years ago and in my intro thread I stated I was "doing the 90 in 90." At the time Dean resonded that it was really good that I was serious about my recovery and that it was way more common for folks to come to MIP and whine about how miserable the their life was due to drinking and then reject the idea of going to meetings or to go to only a few (Half-measures). I am glad I got some sound support and suggestions then and not told that 90 meetings in 90 days is BS.

Here is the actual response I got from Dean (the moderator here) which was the first response anyone gave me here at MIP -

Hi Mark, welcome to the board. I like your bio. "doing the 90/90" and it sounds like you're "getting it". A great example for other newcomers already. smile.gif



-- Edited by pinkchip on Thursday 28th of June 2012 06:51:54 AM

__________________
Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!


MIP Old Timer

Status: Offline
Posts: 7451
Date:
Permalink  
 

PinkChip hit the nail on the head, ... ... ... 90 -in- 90 is simply a suggestion ... it is not mandatory ... and it is not B.S. ... ... ... it really does help the 'new-comer' look at, and evaluate, themselves in a serious manner ...

They will come to know for sure if they have a problem with alcohol or not, then they will know the solution to the problem is there in front of them if they admit they have a problem and have a desire to quite ... So, McGowdog, you do get something for your 90 -in- 90 ... (whether you drink or not during this time is your choice ... I did ... then having done the 90 -in- 90, It screwed up any further enjoyment i had to drink, I drank because I thought I had to ... then years later, I came back and actually worked the program ...)

I understand the suggestion of doing 90 -in- 90 came about as the result of a judge giving an alcoholic the option of 90 days in jail or attend 90 meetings in 90 days(a long time ago) ... 'So let it be written ... So let it be done' ... ... ... LOL

that's my opinion, it oughtta be yours ... LOL

Pappy



__________________

"Life offers no guarantees ... just choices; no certainty ... but consequences; no predictable outcomes ... just the privilege of pursuit."    -Tim Conner



MIP Old Timer

Status: Offline
Posts: 751
Date:
Permalink  
 

It helped me get into a routine of going to meetings. It helped me feel like I belonged when all I really wanted to do was withdraw from the world. It helped the message sink in because I wasn't well enough to really understand a lot of what I was being told. It gave me a plan for the day instead of lying at home crying because I'd just gone and blown my life up. It - in a nutshell - did for me what I couldn't do for myself right then.

What I do know is that I didn't get sober sitting at home not going to meetings. I did that for 15 years and it took me nowhere. What the first 90 days did was got me sane enough to understand not only that I had to do the steps but also why I needed to do them.

__________________
I will be the best orange I can be


Newbie

Status: Offline
Posts: 3
Date:
Permalink  
 

I don't know about 90 in 90 as a formula. I just know that I do at least one meeting a day and occasionally two. Makes a big difference being around experience strength and hope even if it's only for an hour or so.

__________________


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 321
Date:
Permalink  
 


Hi Violet and welcome.

I would love to know where your City in the UK is ? I lived in a very small Town that just has 2 meetings a week but all the other wee Towns beside it also had 2 meetings a week so I went to all the Towns and to all the 2 meetings in our area doing 6/7 meetings a week for well over a year.

I went because I needed to and also because I wanted to. At my first meeting I share that I needed friends and they all came with numbers for me to call. They were all small meetings and it was wonderful to see all my new found friends doing all the rounds at all the meetings :} Oh what a wonderful community :} Full of some good old timers and new comers from the hospital I was lock up in also.

Big book studies were going around too ! And all the kind of meetings that made the variety more interesting :}

Polly. X

__________________
new found friends are our rock.


MIP Old Timer

Status: Offline
Posts: 1018
Date:
Permalink  
 

Everyone is making valid points oubout 90/90. For myself I managed about 80 and found it helpful. But I also think McCowdog's experience is equally valid and contrary to his own view "but that's just me" there are many that have similar experience.

For example I sponsor a man who intially came to 2 meetings a week, and now does about three. He has taken the steps, and had his spiritual awakening. I am amazed at the change in him, just had his second birthday.

I think the danger is in overselling it. 90 in 90 is not the program and it is not a guarantee of success. In the same way 'meeting makers make it" can lead someone to believe that all they need do is meetings to recover. If these ideas had been around when the first 100 put the manual of instruction together, I doubt whether they would have been included. This is because they were having phenomenal success without 90 in 90, and I think they would have regarded the latter as an outright lie.

It is very wrong to suggest things like 90 in 90 are essential to recovery. If you have decided you want what we have and decide to accept our suggestion to use the AA program to recover, then we get into clear cut instructions on how to recover. After that it is all musts, at once, vigorous, immediately, and rigorous - it is all action, not passively sitting in meetings trying to absorb the program through the seats. The enema hasn't been built that can remove the things that had been blocking us!

These days I hesitate to suggest 90 in 90 perhaps because many of our local AA meetings are somewhat watered down and tend to focus on the problem rather than the solution. They don't always carry the message the newcomer needs to hear and so can sometimes do more harm than good. Instead I would spend maybe 30-40 hours over the same period, working one on one, using the Big Book and the Steps. The important thing is to try and guide the newcomer to their spiritual awakening, remembering that alcoholics of my type have an illness which only a spiritual experience will conquer. The spiritual awakening comes as the result of the steps, there is no rider on the number of meetings attended.

God bless,

MikeH.





__________________

Fyne Spirit

Walking with curiosity.



MIP Old Timer

Status: Offline
Posts: 7451
Date:
Permalink  
 

Excellent 'point of view' MikeH, ... ... ... Everybody is different and it takes what it takes to sober up and stay that way ... we're either going to do it -or- most likely die (sooner than later)... The choice is ours ...

Pappy



__________________

"Life offers no guarantees ... just choices; no certainty ... but consequences; no predictable outcomes ... just the privilege of pursuit."    -Tim Conner



Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 266
Date:
Permalink  
 

90 in 90 is simply a "spoke" on the "wheel of recovery"

enough "spokes" and the sobriety runs true, not enough and the wheel gets wobbly, it's a good sound suggestion as -part- of a Program of Recovery, which also include a Home Group, A Sponsor, working the steps, having a support group, getting into service, sponsoring others etc. Some people stay sober and miss one or two of those things, and that's not my job to judge them, especially when they seem happier and better adjusted to life then me lol

Some people need more "spokes" then others, at different times in my life I have needed all of them, sometimes frankly only one or two, I have gone back and done 90 in 90 multiple times over the years to kick start my program, and frankly I always suggest 90 in 90 to newcomers, many, if not most times if they kick against the prick and whinge about how they are too busy to make 90 in 90, they don't make it, Sobriety isn't the #1 thing in their life, and frankly I have zero patience for that BS, if someone comes to me and asks for help then blows off my suggestions (such as 90 in 90) frankly I don't have time for them, I look for someone willing to grab on to this thing with the same willingness as a drowning man grabs a life preserver, and my attitude is based on my direct experience with working with thousands of thousands of newcomers and hundreds of "sponsees", the ones that make it are the ones who jump in with both feet, no reservations.

It's not "the answer" but it can be part of the answer, Mark (Pink Chip) made some absolutely valid points, the people I see get and stay sober are the ones willing to as much effort into sobriety as they did at getting loaded, -generally speaking- the people who don't follow suggestions don't stay sober, because they still have their own "plan", yeah The Program revolves around the steps, but there are many parts to The Program, including the fellowship, meetings, stepwork etc ad nauseum, one can get sober without doing 90 in 90, but one can rebuild a car without an owners manual too, doesn't make it the easiest way to do it.

It's funny, but that makes me think, I am a member of a Mercedes Forum, and I recently restored a 1972 Mercedes and it took me -months- (a year later and I am still working on it) but I scoured thousands of posts for months before I started then did a "restore thread", it went on for page after page, trouble shooting, problems, diagnostics, blah blah, then 3-4 months later I had put together 5-6 "rebuild threads" from other people with the same make and model and I noticed something.

Every single story was the exact same, the exact same things broke (needed repairs) in the exact same order, so I did a write up, explaining -exactly- what would happen in what order, what you could expect if you were restoring this exact car.

1 in 20 people -maybe- read it and follow the instructions, they do the same thing, re-invent the wheel, 6 months later they go read my thread and wonder why they didn't follow instructions in the firsat place, 2 hours reading, maybe 1 week to fix versus 6 months of agonizing pulling your hair out suffering, why won't my car run, drama blah blah

It's human nature, but I brought the tools I learned in recovery to restoring this car....as in...
rule #1 : read the instructions
rule #2 : Follow instructions

90 in 90 are in the instructions, you can get there without following instructions but the chances are you won't, and your life will be much simpler if you follow instructions, less drama, less pain, but as defiance is the outstanding characteristic of alcoholics...it's fun to watch

__________________

Light a man a fire and he's warm for a night, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life



MIP Old Timer

Status: Offline
Posts: 1018
Date:
Permalink  
 

Andrew,

I hesitate to question your posts as they are always well written and thoroughly researched and I have learnt a great deal from them. I have to ask though, where in the manual of instruction (The Big Book) does it say anything about 90 in 90?

I have nothing against the idea, and undertook something simliar in different times, but I believe that one needs to be discriminating in which meetings would be useful, and which dangerous in this context. Where I live, not all meetings follow the instructions, some are against the steps, some say meetings will keep you sober but the steps will change your life, some are amateur group therapy, some are all inclusive where people with all kinds of problems other than alcohol participate. 90 in 90 in meetings like this will most likely do the real alcoholic newcomer more harm than good and many do infact fall by the wayside.

In an area with plenty of groups with the sole aim of achieving sobriety through the teaching and practice of the 12 steps, 90/90 is bound to be effective, but if that is not the case, more one on one work is an effective and proven alternative. It's a matter of making the best of the available resources, rather than following a particular dogma.

God bless,
Mike.

__________________

Fyne Spirit

Walking with curiosity.



Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 266
Date:
Permalink  
 

Fyne Spirit wrote:

Andrew,

I hesitate to question your posts as they are always well written and thoroughly researched and I have learnt a great deal from them. I have to ask though, where in the manual of instruction (The Big Book) does it say anything about 90 in 90?

I have nothing against the idea, and undertook something simliar in different times, but I believe that one needs to be discriminating in which meetings would be useful, and which dangerous in this context. Where I live, not all meetings follow the instructions, some are against the steps, some say meetings will keep you sober but the steps will change your life, some are amateur group therapy, some are all inclusive where people with all kinds of problems other than alcohol participate. 90 in 90 in meetings like this will most likely do the real alcoholic newcomer more harm than good and many do infact fall by the wayside.

In an area with plenty of groups with the sole aim of achieving sobriety through the teaching and practice of the 12 steps, 90/90 is bound to be effective, but if that is not the case, more one on one work is an effective and proven alternative. It's a matter of making the best of the available resources, rather than following a particular dogma.

God bless,
Mike.


The Big Book doesn't say anything about 90 in 90

nor does it mention sponsorship

nor does it mention service work, or taking commitments at meetings

it doesn't say anything about no new relationships for your first year

it doesn't teach about swapping adictions with sex or other drugs either

it does say "hardly an evening goes by without a get together at someone's house (this was before meetings) and we have set aside one night a week to carry the message to other alcoholics (the first meetings), implying that "fellowshipping" was something that was happening every day.

However the Big Book says (about sex) "We want to stay out of this controversy, we all have sex problems we'd hardly be human if we didn't" yet aa as such has taken the exact opposite route,  "No new relationships for a year" is touted as gospel in every meeting I have ever attended, as is the "hands off the women newcomers" and these are both sounds bits of wisdom as well. AA nowadays gets all up in people's sex lives.

90 in 90 isn't "The Answer", it isn't "the silver bullet", but, taken in conjuction with the other steps it's good sound stuff, it's been proven that it takes 90 days to replace one habit with another, so just by getting in the habit of going to a meeting instead of to the bar or popping a cold one is helpful.

I am also a proponent of the steps, sponsorship, etc and believe The Program resides in the first 164 pages, but we have picked up a wrinkle or two over the years that we have found to be helpful...such as...say...sponsorship...which also isn't in The Big Book, mainly because sponsorship as we know it wasn't "invented" until after the book was published by Clarence, so just because 90 in 90, sponsorship. cross addiction, relationship addictions, etc ad nauseum aren't in the book don't make them bad ideas.

So say we want to stick -exactly- to the book and the founders, let's take a look, shall we? Bill was dropping acid to try to have another spiritual experience and shagged anything that moved, especially if she was new, my old great grandsponsor was smoking pot living naked in Thailand in the 50's (while sober) because they were still experimenting, try going to a meeting today, tell them you will be smoking pot, doing acid, you won't be doing 90 in 90 or getting a sponsor and you will be banging as many newcomer chicks as possible, see how they react...and yeah, you can say "but but none of that is in the book and that's how Bill did it" and see how far it gets you.

 

90 in 90 is sound stuff -in addition to- the steps, working with a sponsor, getting into service, sponsoring others etc

 

The meetings are NOT the Program, but they aren't a bar or your head either.



-- Edited by LinBabaAgo-go on Saturday 30th of June 2012 04:04:03 AM

__________________

Light a man a fire and he's warm for a night, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life



MIP Old Timer

Status: Offline
Posts: 1018
Date:
Permalink  
 

Yeah right.

Sad that you had to descend to denigrating our founder who, I believe, never claimed to be a saint. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone eh?

For some strange reason , maybe lack of any formal qualification in these areas, I don't feel competent to instruct people on their relationships, sexual conduct, other addictions, legal or medical problems etc. I refer them to people that are qualified, and confine my own activities to my ESH with alcoholism and the joy of living
the AA program.

Perhaps you are qualified to delve into these areas and if so, good for you, I am sure your local AAs are much the better for it. Most of the AAs I know aren't qualified, and those that are keep their skills for their profession and carry out their work as professionals seperate from AA.

An AA who delves into these other issues without knowledge and skill can do more harm than good, and sometimes does. Infact it may be a reason the AA recovery rate is so much poorer than it was. Alcoholics generally, in my experience, don't respond well to overly prescriptive methods of sponsorship. They will either walk away or end up being dishonest with their sponsor.

Then there is the sponsor who is careful to make sure nothing gets in the way of the newcomer and his/her spiritual experience. That means allowing them to make their mistakes and helping them learn from them, not judgmentally insisting on a particular dogma.

I don't recall ever saying "that's how Bill did it" those are your words. As I understand it, Bill wrote the draft and the first 100 had quite a bit of editorial input. Once published and in circulation, those who put the suggestions into effect met with great success regardless of what Bill or some of the other early members were doing in their personal lives. Our NZ founder was a bit bonkers they say, but Like Bill, Ian is remembered by his good works and not his faults.

God bless,
MikeH.

__________________

Fyne Spirit

Walking with curiosity.



Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 266
Date:
Permalink  
 

Hell I wasn't denigrating Bill, I have done all those things, dropped acid, made some piss poor sexual decisions, hell it just means he was human, I like Bill a lot, but he wasn't God and his poop stunk, and not everything he said and did was gospel, he was a frail human who penned a remarkable book, some might even say "miraculous", and you wouldn't find me arguing.

I actually stick to the bb pretty much, I stay out of people's sex lives, I pass on my experience, what the BB says, what the fellowsip says, then each person's choice is their own, I don't say "you must needs do this", I say "this is what I did, this is what the BB says, this is what the fellowship says, here are my ideas on that based on my experience" and I encourage my sponsees to have an experience of their own.

I actually think the miracle of AA is that it -wasn't- written by Saints, it was written by people with flaws, put in stark prose my life could sound similar to Bill's in that I am certainly not without sin, and by no means was I casting stones, the point I was illustrating is AA -has- learned a few things over the years, such as cross addiction, and 90 in 90 is helpful, and I was pointing out that being too dogmatic can be taken to a ridiculous extreme (which I don't believe you do by the way)

Gandhi said I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. I think that happens sometimes in AA, people get so tangled up in the dogma they forget the forest for the trees, which is this deal is about love and service and helping each other, because none of us made it alone, and not relying on or deifying any one person or rigid mindset, we made it by helping each other and forgiving each other our transgressions and forgiving ourselves in our quest to be better people, I actually really like Bill, I have a LOT of respect for him, think his books are amazing, and his fourth step about sex is one of the most rational and balanced approaches to sex I have ever seen in my life. once again, I do not mean you are too rigid, you whom I have nothing but affection and respect for, but that was the point I was making when someone questions the 90 in 90 because "it's not in the book". That argument just doesn't hold water, any more then saying Leviticus says homosexuality is an abomination without pointing out the rest of the moonshine Leviticus spouts, you can't just cherry pick your facts and leave out others and be truly fair. Want to stick strictly to the book and our founders, OK, but you have to take the bad with the good.

Not everything is the book, that's just how that is, I'm not knocking the book, I think it's as close as you can get to divinely inspired, as are the seeming "coincidences" of Bill's life that lead him to each of the steps, Dr Silkworth, Carl Jung, The Oxford Group, but 90 in 90 is helpful, as is our pamphlet about sponsorship, and about medicines outside AA, also the 12 Traditions aren't part of the "first 164 pages" either, since they were written later. The Program evolved to a certain extent over the years, and while I consider myself to be "Traditional" as my main sponsor influence/guide got sober in the 40's, he pounded service, selflessness, reaching out to the newcomers, sitting down and shutting up until you had something worthwhile to say (aka experience) and working the steps, but 50 years later he was still attending his fair share of meetings.

Using "90 and 90" isn't in the book as a premise, I simply state if that is your entire premise, you must needs remove sponsorship, cross addictions, smoking pot, doing acid, the traditions, 90 in 90, the preambles to the subsequent editions, the suffix about the spiritual awakening etc. etc ad nauseum, you can't just pick and choose which things aren't in the first 164 you are going to disregard while embracing others without being hypocritical.

Seriously, how would Bill and Bob be viewed in their own program now, doing acid, hitting on newcomers, 12 stepping guys that were still drunk (gasp), bringing drunk people to meetings (gasp) telling people who weren't entirely ready that AA probably wasn't for them (yet) and telling people who questioned their alcoholism to go have a drink (yes, the BB says that, if you are wondering if you are an alcoholic, step over to the nearest barroom and try some controlled drinking and see what happens.) People would lose their F'ing minds if these things happened at meetings now, doing acid, hitting on newcomers, trying to work with people who are actually (gasp) drinking, Bill and Bob were both 12 stepped while drinking/drunk/ or hung over.

90 in 90 is sound advice even if it isn't in the book, as is the "no new relationships for a year" as is staying away from other cross addictions or recreational drugs, the reason I pointed out Bill dropping acid and womanizing is to show the ridiculousness of sticking to a particular dogma while losing sight of what is behind that Dogma, which, in the case of both Christianity and AA's spiritual awakening is "Love and Service", the Christians and AAer's who espouse dogma without living these other traits are missing the point, kwim?

Even the approach to sponsorship you mention isn't strictly speaking "in the book", since it was introduced after the book was published by Clarence, who came up with the idea that you could sponsor just by using the book and who's model we base sponsorship in AA on now.

 

AA has evolved, I'd say it's mostly for the better, since we let women and Catholics and drug addicts and ....wait, what did Bill call them, . "beggars, tramps, asylum inmates, prisoners, queers, plain crackpots, and fallen women" in AA, rather then the "pure alcoholic" although it was iffy for a minute. You want to see blindl adherence to dogma, start up that converstaion here or at a meeting, or another venue and watch intolerance and stupidity rear it's it's ugly head even if it written in black and white, you are an alcoholic if you say you are, drug adict or not, gay or not, man or woman, jew or gentile and people STILL argue about that petty shit like it matters.

 

AA is about love and tolerance, it's our thang man, and when it's not we have gotten off the beam, and not everything is "in the book", that's the only point I was trying to make, I have nothing but affection and respect for you and hold you in high esteem, if something I wrote ruffled your feathers, I am sorry, it's not how it was meant.




-- Edited by LinBabaAgo-go on Tuesday 3rd of July 2012 12:30:38 AM

__________________

Light a man a fire and he's warm for a night, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life

Page 1 of 1  sorted by
 
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.