Dating

TwelveSteps · Senior Member

Dating

Jerry F · MIP Old Timer

Dating for me was a risky behavior. I came from, born and raised in the disease
and was not only predisposed to the chemical and all of the stuff that brings but
also the thoughts, feeling and behaviors that make up an alcoholic's character.
I was told that unless I got a secure hold on who and what I was and made some
major amends my ongoing relationships would end up the same way. They were
right over and over and I had to learn on the job so to speak to get me straight
and to be able to be a useful and working part of a relationship rather than the
"red button" you push to blow up the bridge when things seem not to meet my
expectations. Me being in the program doesn't do anything for the people I choose
to be in relationships with...I gotta accept them unconditionally program and not.
It's enough to make you want to....go to a meeting. (((((hugs))))) smile

happycamper · MIP Old Timer

Hi GG,

I personally dont have any experience dating in AA.

I have heard tho many times that it is recommended that new ppl dont make any major changes early in sobriety. Like changing jobs, geographical moves, etc.

This is not an official recommendation of Alcoholics Anonymous as far as I know. It is something shared in AA meetings and from my own experience of seeing new ppl make these particular changes it has rarely turned out good.

It has been my experience in sponsoring new single women that despite my suggestions for them to pay very close attention to the program, steps and God instead of the guys at the meeting , they do what they think is best for them turns out not to be. New ppl are vulnerable and when they take the focus off their sobriety, and put more effort into pursuing the opposite sex there is usually trouble.

I really believe too that its really none of my business if ppl in the fellowship want to date each other. In all reality its an outside issue ...

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

GG, There are so many reasons why it's suggested to take a year off from relationships to get sober. The most obvious is that the stress of the relationship, or the ending of it, can be a tremendous trigger for the alcoholic to drink. Secondly, getting sober is an introspective process and some what of a fact/fault/amends/solution finding/implementing mission (see 4th - 9th steps) and relationships are a huge distraction to that process. Alcoholics are largely codependent and spend way too much time thinking about other people, and with someone in there life, that they are projecting on heavily, how the **** are they going to take time out and contemplate self help/improvement? It ain't going to happen, because while they are in a relationship they are thinking "I'm fine because I've got him/her". Of course you can always tell an alcoholic but you can't tell them much, and I've yet to see one get out of a relationship because it was suggested to (especially if it was suggested Before they got into it in the first place) so I guess you'll take what ever you get out of this thread (that doesn't validate your decision lol) and use it next time.

I was a relaspser for the first two years. But luckily I got to a point where "I was willing to do whatever it takes to get sober". I finally did my 90/90 and stayed out of relationships the first year, which continued on for 3.5 years. In those 3.5 years I learned all about myself and learned to love, trust, depend, and take care of myself. I learned to have a full life (as in "get a life") and this put me in a position of strength when it came time to date instead of coming from a position of weakness and neediness. Those women had to try and earn a space in my life, prove their value over time. I didn't need them, and I wisely chose ones that didn't need me, which is a scary concept if you stop and think about it. Hope this helps.

Rob84 · MIP Old Timer

The common knowledge in AA is no personal relationships for the 1st year, and certainly no emotional relationships.

One of our major goals to achieve long term sobriety is emotional stability, If you are like me and most of us at 2 mos, you haven't worked the steps and have never really focused on the problem which is "us".

Early on we have very little to offer another person until we can work on our defects and clear away wreckage of the past, and learn to love ourselves first.

I sounds like God has given you a perfect opportunity to be alone so you can focus on the program making some true friends, learning to be unselfish and become part of a group.

Over the years, I have noticed that the people who stay sober go to a lot of meetings, get active in groups, work on themselves, adhere to the common advice and make sobriety their #1 priority.

We only have suggestions, we can obviously do as we please, but if "our way" was working we wouldn't have come to AA. I was 24 when I got sober and my sponsor drilled the "No Personal Relationships for the 1st year" into my head, It wasn't what I wanted to hear, but 26 years later I'm glad I listened to him.

Take care of "you" first and a wonderful life awaits.

Rob

mikef · MIP Old Timer

Hey Dean good to see ya!! hope you had fun away...I am off to a 9:00 a.m. step meeting in Pompano Beach about 9 minutes from where we are staying....Nice being able to get out in the AM. and then chill through the day.Hope all there are well and living in the day! Yes I also didn;t date,I married every girl I was ever with, except the ones I would wake up with "literally out of state!! I was married for the 3rd time when I surrendered in "84 and God had sent me my "angel" to share my life with.I believe she worked hard early on(first couple years to try and live with someone "working abstinence,then later recovery....I am truly Grateful each and everyday for another shot at getting closer to being all the God of my understanding intended me to be and to carry on our primary purpose!Well let me go see some new faces of hope and life..Talk to you all on the rebound.Have a blessed and productive day! smile

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

I came into AA at 36 and thought "No way am I following that suggestion." Hence, I did not follow it. The relationship was not a trigger for me though I can tell you what happened. It ended pretty promptly after a year because I grew and changed to the point of being incompatible with the other person. Then I had another string of false starts and now I just don't care that much. I might be dating someone nice now but more remains to be seen. I am in a position of strength now because I get to choose who I want in my life and let them prove to me if they are worth it more than me just latching on to someone cuz I thought I had to have a relationship.

Don't be in such a rush. I look way better, am much more stable, and am way more capable of attracting better looking and saner people at 38 and sober 2 years than I was at 36 and sober 2 months.

Mark

Reffner · Senior Member

Like Happycamper said, the "no life changing decisions" thing doesn't come from AA. I do agree with it 100% though. I know what I was like my first year, and can't even begin to imagine making life changing decisions with my head still in the fog. It took me well over a year for me to really start to see things with a clearer head. I was also reminded that most who come into AA don't make it a year. So I guess I figured with the odds already stacked against me, I needed to remove ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that stood in my way of getting and staying sober. That meant listening with an open mind, and believing that people were giving me suggestions that really worked. My sponsor tells me often, it takes 5 years for us to get our heads out of our a**es and another 5 years to learn to be comfortable in our sobriety. He may or may not be right, but he HASN'T lied to me yet, so why should I question him on this one?

Brian

LinBaba · MIP Old Timer

I have more experience with this then I'd care to admit, Dean and frankly your ex tell you exactly what is going to happen, not "what to watch out for" but what is going to happen like what your ex says "being overly vulnerable, got attached too quickly, and lost focus on himself and his recovery" pretty much covers it, that is a great description of every single relationship I have ever seen in early sobriety, like we can tell you what happens when we drink, not "watch out for losing control of your drinking" but "this is what will happen if you drink" we don't tell you not to drink or get in relationships, well some do, good luck with that, but we know what happens WHEN we drink, the same is true of relationships in early sobriety, not "these are the things to watch out for" but "this is what happened to every single one of us"

a few months ago Dean made a fairly extensive post about dating in one's first year, perhaps we can prevail on him to dig it up (it was to Steve) and Dean is also right about asking questions we already know the answers to and looking for validation and ignoring the answers we already know to be true because we are going to do what we are going to do, and we are the exception after all, which is exactly the thinking that landed us in AA in the first place, is thinking the rules don't apply to us. We always have some reason why we are the exception, I am 36, this may be my last chance blah blah when the truth is, the rules DO apply to us, actually more so then most people, but we need to prove that to ourselves in the most painful way possible.

repeatedly

Relationships are just another drug for us, especially in early sobriety, and like Dean points out, as long as the relationship is going well we have no reason/need nor the ability to be introspective enough to really work on ourselves, the good news is we stay in the relationship long enough and it's like giving our character defects crack, and THEN we are able to write a good and thorough Fourth step since our defects are obvious enough at that point to not only be obvious to us, but frankly any passing 3 year old.

I have learned that in many ways that no new relationships the first year is more to protect the people FROM the newcomer then to protect the newcomer, because when we are new we change so much that month to month we aren't the same person, plus we are on a rollercoaster of emotions, and truthfully for me, the simple truth was I was harmful to those I dated in my first year, I was like a wrecking ball in whoevers life I touched.

Over the years many many sponsees have come to me with this question, and I answer 3-fold

One: What the book says

We stay out of this controversy, we all have sex problems, we are not the arbiters of anyones sex conduct, and my favorite shirt in early sobriety said "straight pepper diet" and we deal with this like we do any other problem, which was good when the book was written for middle aged middle class married white men, it was a bit different for those of us that got sober young and single, what else are we going to do? We can't drink....taps fingers....hmmm....looks around....weeeeeeee!!!!!

I also got sober in San Francisco which is a GOOD place to be single in your 20's and 30's in, no shortage of attractive single people there.

Two: What the fellowship says now, which is "no new relationships for the first year AND until we have completed the steps" which is sound advice explained well by Dean, Rob, Reffner, Pink Chip and others

Three: My personal experience which is ultimately incredibly painful, both for the harms inflicted on others and on myself, and the incredibly bad choices I make since I choose my mirror, and being unhealthy myself I choose unhealthy partners (how could I not?) and like they say, 2 "D" students don't have an "A" relationship

So what happens is my sponsees and frankly all newcomers (those in their first year including myself) go have their relationship anyway and one of a few things happen

One: It eventually ends poorly and incredibly painfully and they come crawling back in even more pain then when they were new finally willing to do the work, this is most common frankly, and there is a perfect example of that written in this thread, this is commonplace

two: it ends poorly and the sponsee relapses, in many cases this becomes the new drinking pattern for the sponsee, come in, get some time, get a girlfriend, break up, drink, be full of remorse, come back, be full of promises to do it differently this time and here's how, find a girlfriend, it ends poorly, relapse rinse and repeat over and over and over, you can read about it on this very forum, this is also commonplace

I have had more then one "first year" and in addition to these scenarios there are a few more, one being get in a relationship in your first year and still be in it a few years later ready to put a gun to your head because you are so deeply unhappy in the relationship but you don't know how to get out of it because your lives have become so enmeshed since we have absolutely ZERO boundaries when we are new.

Out of many many thousands and thousands of times I have seen this happen (boy meets girl, fools rush in) I have only seen it be successful long term once where I would consider it healthy

HOWEVER, most of us that are single do try it anyway regardless of what anybody says, and have to learn about the hot stove ourselves since we suffer from an inability to learn from others experience or we wouldn't have to go to these silly meetings, so the only "advice" I really have is remember we are here when it's over and you are in such incredible pain you don't know where to turn, remember us and the steps, and that we love you and most of us have done the same, and later on, when you are sponsoring others, remember you aren't God, and allow your sponsees the same freedom God does, the same freedom that you were allowed, which the free will to make our own mistakes

In the mean time, enjoy it, I do know how incredibly special it feels to be in a relationship with all these new and larger then life emotions flying around, some of those experiences were some of the most profound I have ever experienced which I remember vividly 20 years later

-- Edited by LinBaba on Wednesday 15th of September 2010 03:02:50 PM

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

LInBaba, that was awesome, and not just because you quoted me lol. I'll look for that post.......................Ok I think that I found it. here's the thread

http://aa.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=42735&p=3&topicID=37647390

<StPeteDean posted>

"Hello Glinda and welcome to the board. Congrats on 8 years! I also did a lot of work in ACOA, but I got way more help with relationships and all around better feeling of self esteem by working in Codependents anonymous and reading as many John Bradshaw books as I could. I also attended a 3 day seminar with Author Claudia Black, on relationships in recovery, not relationships with people in recovery, which imo is a statistical nightmare, remembering well that relationships are the number 1 relapse trigger for AAs with time in the program. I think the biggest challenge for me was to change my perceptions, by not colorizing them by events in the past and stop being a victim, a behavior that I learned too well from my alcoholic mother (who is sober now). There is lots of work to do, getting sober is just the entrance fee that we pay to enable us to begin the self analysis process.

My first AA sponsor helped me a lot with relationships concepts. He told me that "my picker was broken" and that I was attracted to the wrong women (unhealthy) and that I should run away from the ones that I had a strong attraction for. He went on to explain that I needed to date women that I knew were quality individuals but didn't look like prospects to me because they were so independent and perhaps scared me off because "They didn't Need Me". He made lots of statements like "you need to defuse this bomb, that is your perception of women and how you treat them", and "the only differences between men and women are minor differences in their plumbing". He went on to explain " you need to treat the women that you're dating just like you would one of your guy friends." He meant that I shouldn't act any differently, expect them to pay their own way while we were dating, refrain from giving gifts and favors, and expect them to do what they say they are going to do, as in show up on and ontime for dates etc.... and don't cut them any slack because they are women. All that was about setting boundaries for myself and others, so I'll respect myself and others will respect me. I've added a lot requirements since then about honesty, fidelity, integrity, etiquette, financial responsibility, personal and career goals, manners, respect for their own body, and freedom from addictions. Then the next step is to BE That Person that you wish to attract, so I'm going to have to work hard to meet, and maintain my own very high qualifications. As a single person, I must "have a life" a full life as a bachelor, be happy in that position so that I am dating from a position of strength rather than on one of Neediness. I must have a life full of routines, hobbies, including a great program, complete with a social network of men and women in recovery, and a social life. That person will have to earn their way into my life, over time, qualifying themselves. The good news in this is there are some quality people waiting for you at the end of the process. The Carrot. A healthy relationship between to adults, is when two fully independent people decide to spend some of their time together for their shared enjoyment.

An aquaintance is a person that you meet at an event, and your subsequential unplanned meetings are related to the event.

A companion is an aquaintance, who through several encounters as an aquaintance, has displayed proper behavior, and appears to have similar interests to possible qualify as a friend. Brief outings, typical with a group of others, with this person (a bike ride, a game of vollyball...) the encounter would be centered around the activity and no immediate planning for the next meeting would occur at the end of the activity.

A friendship would begin with a person who has passed through the aquaintancechip and companionship stages, over time and a number of activities. A Planned activitity would be centered on the friendship rather than the activity. ex. "Let's get together on saturday for a couple hours and go have lunch and see what there is to do downtown"

A relationship is when those two time tested friends decide to see each other romantically. A date is made and the emphasis is on that date, with no guarnatees of the future, imo sex is not in the picture. It's a time to ask questions and learn about each other to see if compatibility exhists while having fun in a more one on one activity, . Remember that person doesn't "qualify" to be in a relationship just because they "like" you.

A committed relationship is when, over time, the people in the relationship decide to see each other exclusively, to get to know each other on a deeper level, exploring the possibility of a long term committment, which at this point is not an assumption. This is not living together or the equivilent of spending every possible moment together. Each of these individuals still have a separate life full of thier own social activities, friends, hobbies.

Marriage is a much more committed relationship, after much time and evaluation has determined conciderable compatibility, shared goals and direction, with contingency planning for logistics, finances, and family that have been agreed upon. The people will still maintain thier indivuality, friends, hobbies ect.. the difference being that the relationship concerns will come first.

There, you have it, The 5 levels of intamacy plus marriage. The probelm with codependents (almost all alcoholics are codependents (some are counterdependents) is they want to go from aquaintance to marriage in a couple of weekends.

And once these two needy individuals cling to each other in their whirlwind romance, there is No chance for gettting to know each other, as they've skipped all of the stages of relationships by throwing out all boundaries and what's left is a big scary mess of uncertainty, pain, and fear. Been there, done that, and have the souviegners.

"

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Wednesday 15th of September 2010 10:36:17 AM

LinBaba · MIP Old Timer

Thanks Dean, I was actually thinking of a different thread but that one works, while searching I found this one, now why this is pertinant is because we also get addicted to the dopamines brought about by relationships, especially the "intrigue" in the early stages, and especially in early sobriety, when we remove our chemical coping skills and we desperately want to change the way we feel, we use relationships in much the same way we use other drugs or even depression meds from the Doctor in early sobriety

What the Old Timers told me was of course you feel like crap, of course you are suffering from depression, of course you want to be in a new relationship, of course you want a pill to feel better, you just lost your best friend (alcohol) and your best coping tool, the trick now is to not use drugs or relationships as your new coping skills, it's going to be uncomfortable for awhile but it WILL stabilize and be for the best in the long run, but if you use a relationship or jump on depression meds too early (in your first year) you are just putting off the inevitable work you will have to do, and it WILL catch up to you, and it WILL be painful

StPeteDean wrote:
John Bradshaw wrote that we can get addicted to negative emotions as they release powerful chemicals in the brain (dopamine, adrenaline, endorphins...)(edit by Linbaba: also new relationships in early sobriety) that are more powerful than heroin. This can cause us to become an internal drug addict. I knew that I was a "Type T" personality (risk taker). I've always enjoyed physically challenging sports (dirt bike racing, snow skiing, deep wreck diving, riding sport bikes...) but I didn't know why. I figured it out through a couple other programs. Several events happened to me, when I was a child, that cause me to be separated from my feelings. I walked around for a few decades numb in my body's attempt to shield me from emotional pain. I always had no reaction or delayed reactions to situations in my life. These delays caused me to have resentments as it represented unresolved issues, maybe where I felt victimized in a situation and didn't have the ability to deal with it in real time. Mulling over it later, I felt anger and shame and began belittling myself for not being able to stick up for myself and deal with these situations in "real time". I felt like I was not present, in the now, and the risky sports makes you "live in the now" and be present or else you'll make a mistake, get injured or possibly die. Nothing makes you feel more alive than a near death experience lol.

What I learned was that I needed to be present and take care of issues in real time (learn how to say no, set boundaries, end relationships when I need to, learn to make better choices) so that they didn't stack up for me to nash my teeth about later. The serenity prayer, acceptance, and the 3rd step all play a key roll here also. Most times our fears are unfounded and are fueled by a lack of faith, our perception is skewed and we're probably trying to victimize ourselves ( to release the internal chemicals) or we may still be involved in some slimy behavior that we need to work the 4th - 9th steps on, so that we can feel better about ourselves. All of this is about living in Today and living in the Now.

What else comes to mind is Diet, sleep, exercise, and good vitamins. All of these are essential to mental health. The number 1 treatment for depression is aerobic exercise as it releases endorphins which play a vital role in our mental health. Sugar and caffeine are drugs that should be eliminated from our diets, especially if we are having trouble with anger and depression (a double edged sword). I'm proud to say that I'm now 4 months without coffee and iced, and diet coke. I have a cup of either green or decaf tea in the moring. I'm working on eliminating sugar now. I've been taking a lot vitamins, and supplements since early sobriety. I was fortunate to have gotten into a fitness kick, in early sobriety, joined a gym, and picked up a great book, by Dr. Robert Haas called "Eat to succeed". I highly recommend it. He wrote and earlier book for serious athletes called "Eat to Win" and had decided to write a book for business types, entrepreneur, professionals etc... with the premise that your brain is a machine and you must feed correctly for optimal performance. I was starting my own business at the time (first year in sobriety) which I still have and it has afforded me a pretty spectacular life (Thanks Higher Power!). Anyhow, this book amazing because it dealt with the mind and body, which I needed help with. It was in that book that I learned about aerobic exercise being the #1 cure for depression (running, jogging, using a stair climber... for 40 minutes a day). It worked for me.

I also began taking a pack of vitamins (for my multi) and a few other supplements. Co-Q10 and L-Carnitine together gives you incredible energy that lasts all day. I found raw bee pollen also helped with my energy, mental focus, and feeling of well being. Eating three good meals at set times a day helped tremendously with my mental balance. Taking fast walks in the morning (aerobic-ly) followed by a session in my hot tub listening to jazz music is something that I've been doing for about 15 years. And while we are on the subject of music (and media in general), take a close look at what you're feeding your brain. Are you subjecting your feeble mind to negative messages in your music? Be honest. Are you watching the news and listening to talk radio? I turned all that crap off in my first year of sobriety when I heard people like Tony Robbins, Hirum Smith, Zig Ziggler (and every motivational speaker out there) tell me to cut out negativity in your life. If you want to be happy you need to be possitive and keep your thoughts and actions positive. Zig Ziggler says to "Hang up on bad news", if someone calls you and starts complaining, hang up on them lol. Turn the TV (especially the news) off unless it's a show about nature or light hearted comedy. Carefully scan your music (listen to instrumental is best). If you're listening to gangster rap and you feel depressed, guess what? Your mind is a big tape recorded, "Garbage in Garbage out" It regurgitates what every you put in it.

An finally, lack of sleep causes stress and depression. If you're not sleeping well, long enough, and on a regular schedule, then guess what? You're going to feel like ****. Find out why you're not sleeping well.
Is it Caffeine? Diet has a great affect. Are you staying up late needlessly? Sleeping Fox news on lol.
Are animals sharing a bed with you that wake you in the night? Sleep disorders are no joke and 1 in 3 probably have them. Get a handle on it.

So before you run off the Legal drug dealer (edit by LinBaba: or get into a relationship) get your life in order, Eat, Sleep, and Exercise well.

TwelveSteps · Senior Member

I really appreciate the advice and the link to the other discussion, many thanks!!!

Maybe I'm unlike most other alcoholics in that getting attached too quickly is not my problem, not getting attached is (fears related to being married to the wrong person for many, many years -- luckily, I have a good therapist!). Getting into a new relationship in sobriety is a new experience, the height of the emotions are new, but I also prioritize time for meetings and friends in the program, other friends, and my own interests that he doesn't share as a means of preventing things from getting too involved. It helps that we are both low-drama and pragmatic about relationships.

I enjoy having this new person in my life but if I never hear from him again I'm not going to drink. I'll be sad, but being sad is part of life and I can deal.

Personally, I recognize the risks but am not going to take a year off from dating because for me, I must balance that risk against the fact that I would like to possibly have a child if I meet the right person, and realistically only have 3-4 years left to do that (if I am very fortunate!).

Pinkchip, I really appreciate your statements about changing as a person over the initial period of sobriety, that's definitely something of which I am trying to keep myself aware. Thank you.

It's also good to be reminded of the "no life-changing decisions" waiting period, so thank you. I am dating this person but we certainly won't move in together or do anything else drastic before I am done with working the steps the first time or one year, whichever comes first. I think that's excellent advice.

I am being honest with him about my need for independence right now and the AA recommendations, so I feel that my side of the street is clean. He seems to respect that, and is very respectful of my recovery (and its importance to me) in general, which is great.

So thank you for the advice, I greatly appreciate it. This board is really great and I am grateful for it.

GG

Dave Harm · Senior Member

While I agree with the idea of not dating early in sobriety... there is so much going on...

But this is not a suggestion in our Big Book; in fact, it says the opposite. "Once a man has recovered, he can come and go as he pleases as long as his motives are good". This myth has found its way into AA via treatment centers. Not part of the program.

Though what everybody says here, including myself, waiting brings amazing results... it took me a long time to see that... I could have saved myself and others a lot of pain if I waited...

leeu · MIP Old Timer

The advisement against getting into a relationship in the first year is not from or part of AA.

You will not find it anywhere in the Big Book. The recommendation comes from the addiction treatment experts, (like Bradshaw, Gorski, Wegscheider, Johnson etc.) based on the known dynamics of the recovery process.

It is good advice, based on years of research and practice in treating alcoholism, but it is not actually associated with AA other than it has become embedded as a cultural norm and is commonly assumed to be part of "the program".

There are a LOT of beliefs and sayings like that in "today's" AA, and they do no harm-they just shouldn't be attributed to AA. If people choose to ignore such advice, they are not in any way going "against" the suggesed program of recovery based on the 12 steps. (Yes, Lee's a BB thumper!)

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

My Mom is an old timer and BB thumper too, who's lived alone for her entire sobriety of 34 years. Imho AA is not a program that will help you with relationships. Oh sure, it will help you improve working and family relationships, but intimate relationships, forget about it. Bill W knew this and encouraged people to work on other recovery issues outside of AA once they got a handle on their sobriety. Don't ask me for a quote, ask LinBaba or LeeU lol.

To the original poster. I wish you good luck sincerely. I would suggest that you make getting sober as important as having a child. It would be better to be sober and childless than a drunken mother. I had a drunk for a mother and a father, but that's a story for another program. "Whatever you put in front of your sobriety (in terms of importance) you will lose anyway if you drink again".

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Wednesday 15th of September 2010 06:57:02 PM

LinBaba · MIP Old Timer

I do have one question though Twelve Step, regardless of what we say, what the book says, or what John Bradshaw says

What does your sponsor say?

TwelveSteps · Senior Member

My sponsor towed the line about not dating,but at the end of the day, she was supportive and wants to hear about how I feel.

GG

LinBaba · MIP Old Timer

Well Good Luck, I hope it works out, it sounds like your sponsor is a good one, she tried to toe the line but got towed by it, truthfully most of us that are single do the same, I certainly did, LOL, we alcoholics like to learn our own lessons, that's for sure

By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.
Confucius

Rainspa · Senior Member

I think there has always been the celibacy contingent, and there has always been the more hedonistic group.

The big book references it on page 69 and 70, and it's always worth a read and for me a bit surprising. The directions are quite specific and haven't been mentioned so far.

Oh, and the "No Dating in the first year"?

Not AA

Not a rule.

-- Edited by Rainspa on Friday 17th of September 2010 01:37:29 AM

LinBaba · MIP Old Timer

Not smoking Pot or doing Coke isn't specifically prohibited in the first 164 pages either, but we have found it isn't really a good idea, as a matter of fact now if one smokes pot or drops acid, or does any recreational drug it's recomended that one changes their sobriety date since we have found it is risky behavior, however the founders were trying Acid to have a spiritual experience and many old timers in the 50's and 60's even into the 70's were actually smoking marijuana and claiming sobriety

It's just something experience has shown to good sound practice, and the book and what it says is referenced repeatedly in this thread, there is the hedonistic and the celibacy contingent, absolutely, that fact is absolutely referenced in the book, but there is a third group, that is neither that just suggests it's not a great idea and gives sound reasoning and speak from personal experience and observation, many who suggest that speak from experience, such as myself, it's not a matter of "don't do it because you aren't allowed" it's a matter of "experience has shown it to be, generally speaking not a great idea" and most of us that were young and single have experience with it, because we did the same thing she did, which was said "Thank you for the advice, but I won't be following it because it doesn't apply to me, I'm different and/or special or have special and mitigating circumstances or emotional make up" and go acquire the experience for themselves

Personally I have found the most vehement and verbal of both camps, "no flavor for their fare" and "straight pepper diet" have absolutely no experience with it, as either they were married or couldn't find anyone to sleep with anyway or both quite frankly OR did have a relationship and totally lost their mind so thus try to deny their sponsee the opportunity to make their own mistakes and control their sponsees sex lives and usually try to control other areas of their sponsees lives as well, equally unhealthy

This thread says: "Well experience shows it's not a great idea, and here's why, but good luck if that is what you decide to do, perhaps you are the exception to the rule"

Rainspa · Senior Member

I haven't seen what the book says regarding sex in this thread at all.

I wrote about the location of the information, but not what the book says to do.

Where do you see the instructions? Maybe I'm not seeing all the messages.

My part of this thread says: Read the directions and follow them. They work.

And, bonus, you get to stay sober.

-- Edited by Rainspa on Friday 17th of September 2010 02:20:43 PM

Reffner · Senior Member

Well put Lin. I personally have no experience with the no dating thing because I'm married. I whole heartedly agree that it's about learning from the mistakes of others. I experience the stubbornness or unwillingness every time I walk in the door at work. 90% of the people there still think they have all the answer's and will not take suggestions from others. I've also seen these same people back 2,3, and even 4 times because their way didn't work. Thank God I finally opened my mind enough to realize that following other peoples examples saves me a whole ton of heart ache and pain. I trust what most people in the fellowship say, and find it saves me having to go through it myself. I guess what I'm saying here is I finally decided that I would go to ANY length to get and stay sober. Glad I did, because it sure beats the alternatives.

Brian

barisax · Senior Member

Dating is a fail for me, always has been. I may have completely the wrong impression but I've always interpreted the term "dating" as casual, getting-to-know-you sorts of things, which have no strings attached. I've been on a lot of first dates, but really I've only been in two relationships you could actually call relationships. Dating as a social thing, i.e. double dating, or dating within a circle of acquaintences - which would describe AA dating - is a huge fail for me, it just doesn't happen.

Actually to be honest, only twice in my life have I ever asked a woman for a date and she said yes. One was my first wife, and actually we just had lunch a couple times and she was the one who instigated the first "real" dinner date. The other was my aforementioned temporary almost-AA girlfriend. Every other first date I've been on was either through some kind of service (which is how I met my current wife) or arranged blind date via friends.

So maybe that's why almost-AA girlfriend sticks out in my mind... I actively engaged, and made the first move, and got to the batters box if not first base. That's the only time. I didn't strike out.... I got beaned by the third pitch on a 1-0 count, got knocked unconscious and a pinch runner went to first base for me. And while I was out he got picked off stealing second... LOL.

The fact that I'm currently happily married is something for which I must give all the credit to God, and my wonderful, one-of-a-kind wife. It sure as hell had nothing to do with my charisma or my skill at the dating game. In fact I probably should be beaned and sent back to the bench just for responding to this thread. I just don't know crap about this game other than I suck at it, and winning can be as bad as losing, if not worse.

Barisax

Rainspa · Senior Member

I understood up to this part:

I didn't strike out.... I got beaned by the third pitch on a 1-0 count, got knocked unconscious and a pinch runner went to first base for me. And while I was out he got picked off stealing second... LOL.

I ran out of baseball knowlege at this point. What does this mean?

jonijoni1 · MIP Old Timer

There is plenty of advice on relationships in early recovery, everywhere you go, everywhere there are recovering alcoholics. Like some members here have stated, it is not an official rule or an official suggestion of Alcoholics Anonymous, one way or the other. We are biologically programmed to have sex and intimate relationships, period. And there is a whole process of behavior and emotions that goes along with sex and relationships. The program of AA was created to help us find a God of our understanding to rely on, so we neither have to drink any more, nor make other poor decisions ike we used to. We also find this God of our understanding so that we can rely less heavily on people to fulfill our needs, because people are people. Alcohol didn't fill our innermost needs, and people won't either.

If you can put the AA program first in all your affairs, and keep AA as your #1 priority while maintaining a relationship, then no one should advise you to do otherwise. There is plenty to learn about ourselves and life in general through our relationships. It is always important to remember that people are gifts to us from God, and sometimes they are not meant to be given to us permanently. We are a gift from God to others also, so we should have good boundaries in how we let others treat us. And through AA we can learn valuable tools to help us live better lives and have better relationships.

Failure to properly cope with emotions is a great deal of the reason why we drank. If we have gotten to a point where our emotions will not take us back out no matter what, then so be it. Sometimes relationships give us emotions we can't yet handle sober, and we do get drunk. This is a fact of life in AA and it does happen.

Whatever your path is, it is your path. With AA principles as a guide, WE can handle anything without picking up a drink. This is my sponsor's view on the subject, and mine also. I do know that if we are in a relationship sober, we need to have an understanding of how the Steps work in our lives. It is valuable for a recovering alcoholic in a relationship to know how to properly inventory a situation, and make changes or amends where neccesary.

Good luck to you!

Reffner · Senior Member

Very, very well put Joni. Of all the posts here, I really think you hit it dead on. I can also appreciate it because I know just from some of your previous posts on the bpoad you speak from personal experience. Thank you for that Joni!

Brian

TwelveSteps · Senior Member

I really appreciate all of the advice. Thank you for taking the time to share your experiences. Also, "straight pepper diet" made me LOL -- never heard that phrase before!

GG

Just Toni · MIP Old Timer

Hi GG,

My own little formula for a couple of years involved a visual of a little box of three (3) bandages....I know I had so many hurts, and had to keep all bandaides off to allow For GOD first, AA and the 12 Steps in Recovery to allow me to heal those hurts....

So my motto was (inside my mind anyway) NO Bandaide!!!!!
Bandaide l, Alcohol, Bandaide 2, Drugs, and the last one that was just as important as the first 2, Bandaide 3 was MEN, no drugs, no alcohol, no men...

I had a long long history of either being in a marriage, had two, or being in a Love/Lust relationship.....for me when a relationship was starting up, it occupied all my thoughts, and when sex got involved, it consumed me....so just for me the Box of Bandaide was very critical to my own recovery...

Let us know how your Sobriety is going... thats what were here for.....
Big Hugs, Toni

Came back to say that I was a Rep that called on all the top ad agencies in the San Francisco Bay Area, it is crawling with so many good looking men and woman, and that can be tempting indeed...

No matter what you decide, just enjoy your sobriety, and have a great Sunday tomorrow...

-- Edited by Just Toni on Saturday 18th of September 2010 08:18:59 PM

Dan B 76 · Veteran Member

TwelveSteps wrote:

So... first off, I know the AA recommendation about not dating during your first year of sobriety. I'm 36 so I don't really have that luxury. :)

My ex-boyfriend and I broke up a couple of months ago (completely amicable, he moved to Chicago to start grad school and the distance just became unsustainable, I live in San Francisco). A few weeks ago I started dating a new person. He's great, seems very stable and self-aware, he doesn't drink (not in the program but just chooses not to).

My ex has been great and supportive, he was also in the program and recently shared with me some of the things that went wrong in the disastrous relationship he got into at 3 months sober -- being overly vulnerable, got attached too quickly, and lost focus on himself and his recovery, as a way of helping me know what pitfalls to look out for.

Anyway, I'm just wondering if y'all have other advice you would be willing to share regarding dating in early sobriety. I've been going to AA for about 6 months and have 2 months of sobriety.

Thanks!
GG

GG Do you have the luxury of another recovery if things don't go well and you use again? By the grace of God I was given a second chance, I don't know if there is a third and I don't want to find out. I know for my sobriety I have and will do what needs to be done. Listen to what has been said, I haven't read all the posts but many, and the common thread I have picked up is no need to rush. You may not need a year could be less could be more. Listen to your group and your sponsor. Going to AA 6 months 2 months sobriety. Focus on your program not on a relationship at this point.

-- Edited by Dan B 76 on Sunday 19th of September 2010 09:28:41 PM

angelov8 · MIP Old Timer

Today the meeting after the meeting was on dating and recovery and the phrase that was considered was "To Thy Own Self Be True". Some who have longer recovery where talking about discovering relationship and dating as a person who could be true to themselves for the first time. All there expressed that this form of personal honesty had been truly lacking in sexual relationships prior to recovery, and that this new ability to be themselves and see another honestly was joyfull and refreshing.

For me, I hadn't an inkling of who I was while I was drinking. I sure thought I knew. I thought all of the misery and neurotic behavior was my lot. "To Thine Own Self Be True" has been a journey of discovery and I am not the person I thought I was. This self-discovery has been rewarding and connected to the promises in amazing ways. I can't imagine trying to be in any sort of relationship with some one new, while I was new to sobriety. Many of the posts above have highlighted some important reasons why very carefully.

In my case, I had no choice about the relationship thing because I got sober and woke up and realized Oh no, I'M MARRIED. So I've had to do all this early sobriety stuff while my life is intimately intertwined with another individual. It is tough. In fact today, it is the thing that I find to be the biggest challenge in my life.

I have forged new and healthy relationships with others in AA. I have learned for the first time what a true sister/friend is, slowly. This is a treasure that I may have over-looked if I was single and looking. I'm sure I'll get eventually to participate in a romantic/sex/love relationship where the promise of healthy, fun, romantic and the giving and receiving love is a reality rather than a juicy bone I'm eyeballing. I'm jealous of those who were able to keep things simple in the beginning by focusing on themselves and the program, cause that's what has been useful in early recovery, the simple things.

I have managed so far to put my recovery first, however, I feel like there's a monkey on my back always waiting to stir up discontent, and that is dealing with being in a marriage, while trying to grow in recovery and seeing that our paths are quite possibly moving in different directions.

Every one has do what they gotta do. It take what it takes. As long as I keep on trudging on this sober path, I figure it's all good for today.

PS- A confession: I have been totally depressed about my husband drinking even though I don't even imagine I can control it and the general mood around the house is dismal, so have been trying out another 12 step program tentatively. So in the midst of all this, this extrememely HOT newcomer has been around my person at program stuff despite my best attempts to avoid contact. So thankfully, I purged the whole longing for a fulfilling relationship(and/or sex) thing unexpectedly while in my new writing group. In a timed exercise and with out forethought I found myself writing a fictional account of a Suweet! meeting of two souls in the night while bunking in a cabin at a retreat. Very embarrassing to read out loud, but the other gals LOVED it and I haven't had an impure or dangerous thought since.

-- Edited by angelov8 on Tuesday 21st of September 2010 01:26:32 AM

-- Edited by angelov8 on Tuesday 21st of September 2010 01:37:12 AM