ferrisdp wrote:

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I was talking with an old-timer on Friday about the current demographics of AA members in the U.S.  I haven't been able to find reliable statistics online

Why not? The AA website shows up if you google AA statistics. Here's the breakdown: The stats are at the AA website;  average age is 47, 67% male, 85.1% white.



but he told me that AA membership is 85% white and 75% men.



This bothered me and I've been thinking about it the last few days. 

Why?
For an organazation that preaches all-inclusiveness, if these statistics are true, it clearly is not.

AA is NOT ALL INCLUSIVE.  AA is for a VERY small and VERY specific part of the population-alcoholics.  Since there is a genetic component, alcoholism is not distributed equally across either race or gender, but by people that have this specific disease and want to stop drinking.

This member also told me that AA membership has leveled off over the last several years, another concern for me. 

Why does this concern you? How does this concern manifest itself? Does your concern keep you from going to meetings or working the steps?


What will happpen to the future of an organization that is comprised of mostly older white men?

Do you care what happens to old white men?

With any luck, eventually there will be a cure and no one will have to suffer from alcoholism. Best case senario for AA is to go out of business because there is no need for it.  Wouldn't that be nice? Why would I wish this on anyone? Recovery yes, but alcoholism? I remember what it is like. Wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

Do you envision a membership drive?

I don't have any answers and nor am I trying to stir up controversy.  AA is helping me to stay sober and for that I am grateful. 

Oh, I wouldn't say that.

But I wonder if some "modernization" may be necessary. 

Why? If AA is just old white men, and needs modernization why is it important?



A couple of examples:   to me there is a tacit sense that medications in the teatment of alcoholism are frowned upon, particularly by older members. 


And I've heard  members speak with reverence about the two-by-four methods they experienced in their AA recovery lives.  I
firmly believe there is not just one way to achieve and maintain sobriety,

What, exactly, is the other way?

 though this is the way I chose (membership and working the steps).

But I wonder if some "modernization" may be necessary. 
It may be necessary for you. An easier, softer way may be necessary. The problem is finding out if that easier, softer or modernized way will get and keep you sober. Some experimentation may be called for on your part, but I hope not. We've all known a few who have tried.

Again I am not disparaging anyone here, (except for "the two by four methods they experienced in their recovery lives) or the way in which they got and/or stayed sober.  

Er, yes you did. But that's OK.  You don't have to be in AA. If you can get sober another way, then good for you.

But the BB does say that open-mindedness is a critical attribute necessary for indivivual success in this program -- "everlasting ignorance" "is contempt prior to investigation".  

Actually, what is in the Big Book is a quote from Herbert Spencer:

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlastingignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
       -- HerbertSpencer

I would love to hear the thoughts of other MIP members.

I'd love to hear what they say at your home group.

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Interesting thread, thankyou everyone for sharing.

Like Jerry, I am reminded of the AA Responsibility Declaration.

I dunno, sometimes the fellowship can and does get complicated.

I honestly believe that if its not me, some other AA member will carry the message to the next sick and suffering alcoholic. I believe this will continue forever, I really do.

I owe my life to AA and the God I found there. I truely believe that I should be at least doing the best I can to make sure I pass on what I have learned and continue to learn on a daily basis.

If I keep a close connection with God ( Trust God ) keep the junk and yucky stuff out of my brain and gutts , and mind my own business ( clean house ) and share my esh with another drunk ( help others ) then Im satisfied for 24 hours.

I threw away my crystal ball a loooooong time ago, it kept lying to me. I dont have a clue as to AA's future, I dont think anybody does.
If I knew what the future held, I wouldnt be here right now thats for sure

This is what I know........ it works for me. And with my help it will work for others!

BTW, will somebody please clue me in?

What are "two-by-four methods"?

ya know ... a 2 x 4 piece of lumber.

taking it and wacking somebody in the head with it would be the 2x4 treatment.

thats how I understand it.

happycamper wrote:

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ya know ... a 2 x 4 piece of lumber.

taking it and wacking somebody in the head with it would be the 2x4 treatment.

thats how I understand it.

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Oh, well that's just silly.

 

"Two-by-four methods" is a term I have heard some members use to describe those used by their sponsors.  It refers to little tolerance or open-mindedness -- "my way or the highway" -- no discussion.  That's how I understood it based on the context in which it was used.  Hope that clears that up.

The reason for this post is that the topic was something I had been thinking about after a well-regarded and long time member of my home group mentioned it at a meeting at which he spoke and again to me directly at another meeting we both attended.  Nothing more.

According to 2000 census data the white population in the U.S. is 75%-77% depending on whether the data is cut by single race or multiple race estimates.  That's a significant difference from 85% with a total U.S.poulation of over 280 million.

With that said, I do tend to overthink things, which has been pointed out by my sponsor, my aftercare group and friends in the program.  For example, I struggled for months with the 3rd step because I didn't know what it meant to turn my will and life over to my HP.  I was told that I was over-complicating it.  And one day it just happened.

Anyway, I asked my HP for guidance on Sunday evening because, as I stated, I had no answer. It came to me this morning during my meditation.  All I can do is extend my hand to all members at every meeting I attend and and continue to take the next right action in my daily life.  When the opportunity arises, help newcomers by sharing my ESH or just driving someone to a meeting.  Continue to pray, not selfishly but for others.  And continue to ask my HP to show me "the way of patience, tolerance, kindness and love". 

And stop overthinking things and leaving that to others.

Funny thing: this came up again recently.

Those that were there for it say that when people were going to meetings once a week because there were fewer meetings, the more people stayed sober, and stayed sober longer.

The idea was that when AA boomed one of the things that happened was that with more meetings, they were less intense and people worked harder to stay sober between meetings.

Since one works steps outside of the meeting for the most part, that makes sence.

So maybe a little downsizing, or right sizing wouldn't hurt.

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Reffner wrote:

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Rainspa wrote:

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Funny thing: this came up again recently.

Those that were there for it say that when people were going to meetings once a week because there were fewer meetings, the more people stayed sober, and stayed sober longer.

The idea was that when AA boomed one of the things that happened was that with more meetings, they were less intense and people worked harder to stay sober between meetings.

Since one works steps outside of the meeting for the most part, that makes sence.

So maybe a little downsizing, or right sizing wouldn't hurt.

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Wow.  To me that just sounds crazy.  Fewer meeting will increase the chance of long term sobriety?  The thought of that scares the living hell out of me.  I strongly disagree that downsizing AA could in ANY WAY benefit the fellowship or it's members.  Maybe it's just me, but the highlight of my day is sitting in meetings.  My meetings are the most important part of my day.  I agree that maybe people in the fellowship worked harder in the past because of fewer meetings.  For me, that's like denying myself the help and fellowship of friends (meetings) because I should be working the steps harder by myself.  When I'm alone I'm in bad company.  Today, meetings when I "don't really need them" are spiritual deposits in my bank of sobriety.

 

I believe that AA was a God given solution to a problem that was hopeless in the past.  I also believe that God will take the fellowship in the direction it's supposed to go, regardless of what I do.  Why should I worry about something that God has control over?  When I was drinking, I always tried to play god.  Thankfully, today I realize that I'm not god, and no longer have a desire to even try to be.  AA is a program for all alcoholics that who want sobriety, and no matter what I want, it's not going to change to suit me.  I need to change myself and adapt to the program.

 

Brian

 

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@ The OP:

I too have noticed these trends inside AA, when I attended meetings in London, they all talked funny, in meetings in Mexico everyone in the room was mexican, in Scotland they were completely wacked, I couldn't understand a word anybody said, in Oakland most meetings were full of African Americans, I have seen womens meetings with nothing but women, gay meetings with nothing but gays -gasp- and worst of all, in Marin they were all yuppies!!!!  It's  very frightening these trends where the AA membership reflects that of the community around it.

AA will be fine, and has always reflected the demographic of it's locale, although how LA came out to be one of the most hardcore areas I have ever seen baffles me

@Reffner

When I heard that suggestion I too was mortified and frightened, "too many meetings, are you crazy?"

The person answered back "Why do the work when you can just go to a meeting?"

It took a long time but the truth is I have now come around to his way of thinking, for me, I immersed myself in AA, meetings every night, out with AA friends after the meeting every night, sometimes 2 meetings a night, all my friends were AA friends, and I met with my sponsor once a week to work the steps, so I personally was threatened by what he said.

However, over the last 10 or 15 years or so I have watched new people come in and confuse meetings with "The Program", they attend meetings and call it "working a strong program" when the fact is they have never even cracked the book, worked a step, and the only knowledge they have with the actual program of Alcoholics Anonymous is hearing other peoples interpretation of "The Program", they show up and talk about their day, use the group to dump their resentments, in short they use the AA meeting, which is there wholly to carry the message to the still suffering alcoholic as their own personal group therapy and hold the group hostage daily as they spew their bile which contains no recovery in it whatsoever and others who were taught the same way nod their heads like sheep and murmer things like "thank you", "keep coming back" and "thanks for keeping me sober"

Now this may just be me, but listening to someone whinge about their day who doesn't have the slightest clue how to stay sober nor even a nodding acquaintance with the program of alcoholics anonymous doesn't keep me sober, it does however teach me patience and tolerance, if not always love, and too much of it to me means the group is a sick and weak one without any solid recovery behind it, no "elder statesmen" holding sway, probably because they have moved on to other meetings, private ones, ones where actual AA is practiced.

I even hear nonsense like "wait a year to do your fourth step" quoted as "The Program" when in fact it's stated in the book and 12 by 12 exactly when to do the steps, it uses words like "Immediately" and "at once" and "next" and in the 12 and twelve it references the person doing the 5th step as a "Newcomer" which is "We define a newcomer as someone in their first 30 days of sobriety or recently out of a treatment center"

AA and "The Program" of Recovery therein is an "inside job" and it states clearly that no human power could have relieved our alcoholism.

Meetings are a human power and their primary purpose is to carry the message to the still suffering -alcoholic- or in other words, to tell them where the program of recovery is to be found, and it's not in meetings, it's in the book, it's in working the steps, it's following suggestions, and sponsoring others, and it's in going to meetings to carry the message to the still suffering alcoholic.

If you have have any questions, just keep reading this board and watch people continually relapse over the months and years that use "meetings" instead of "The Program", and keep going to meetings and watch people come back over and over and over that can't figure out why they can't get sober and stay that way, and when you finally do pull them aside and start working with them out of the Book they frequently say "I never knew that" "Nobody told me" because so many non alcoholics show up and are able to get sober without working the steps so they try to pass that on to the real alcoholic who's only hope of sobriety is the spiritual awakening as THE result of working THE steps, instead they hear things like "90 in 90" and "keep coming back" and these poor people are an incredibly baffled lot because meeting attendance doesn't work for them, then they walk away from AA saying "It doesn't work" when in fact they don't know if it works or not because no one told them what the program actually was and some people even tell them to wait a year to do the steps!!!!

complete and utter insanity

However, AA will be fine, as long as we have the BB and the ability to read it, AA is sound as a pound, if meetings disappeared off the face of the Earth today, I'd be fine

That's why all over America and even Europe I hear small meetings keep popping up that aren't listed in the schedule, where the only literature used is the big book and the 12 x 12 but eventually the word gets out that it's a "good" meeting, it gets listed in the schedule as it gets large, and the trendy "meeting makers make it" crowd descend on it en-masse because they hear it's good, strong AA, start blathering on about their day, and the core group quietly slips out and founds a new meeting to go back to carrying the message, which by the way IS absolutely encouraged in our Traditions, any 2-3 alcoholics can form a new group (establishing membership as being confined to alcoholics only) providing that as a group they have no other affiliation.

WHAT ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS IS

AA is a spirit. It can't be touched nor fully understood.
It as big as the universe, yet small enough to fit into your heart.
It has brought light where only darkness dwelled.
It has given hope to the hopeless and help to those who yearned in despair.
It has taught patience to the hurried and action to the lazy.
To youth it has given vision.
To the aged, promise.
To the lonely, companionship.
And to the restless, it has given rest.
To the sick it has been a doctor, to the dying it has given life.
It has no judgement against the unteachable.
It has no praise for the wise.
For the outcast it has been family.
To the childless it has given children.
To the ignorant it has given wisdom, to the wise it has given tolerance.
It has given to all men and women that which is most precious- it has given the love of life and the love of truth with enough leftover to share.
-anonymous

-- Edited by LinBaba on Sunday 19th of September 2010 09:14:40 PM

New to the board and yup, resurrecting an old one.

I have 17 years of sobriety as of March 17. Yes I'm Irish!

I have reduced my meetings over the pass four years. I celebrated

this past Saturday but have not been to a meeting since July.

I too know many people that go to meetings yet continually slip and slide.

I always hear people talking about how you will go out if you don't go to meetings.

WHAT?? That's crazy. How do you stay sober? As others have mentioned, the program is not

in the meetings. I think that's why people go out if they don't go to meetings because

they don't know the program is, they know meetings.

I started practicing Buddhism 4 years ago, no higher power in the practice and my program is as strong as ever.

The strength is within me. That's right, SELF WILL RUN RIOT!

 

Currently I do not read any literature. I read it for almost 15 years.
I think this explains it best. I will not go into detail on the descriptions.
If you're interested in what some of this means, such as the Four Noble Truths, you can Google
it. Remember that the term higher power refers to the Noble Eightfold Path.
First 4 Steps are defined in the Four Noble Truths. The step number is in () and indented.


1. All life contains suffering and unsatisfactoriness

(1) we admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanagable

2. Suffering is caused by craving (for base objects, goals, desires)

3. This Craving can be eliminated

(2) Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity

4. The key to the elimination of craving is The Noble Eightfold Path.

(3) Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him

The Noble Eightfold Path (ariya atthangika magga) is summarised as follows and defines steps 5 thru 12

1. Right view

understanding suffering
understanding its origin
understanding its cessation
understanding the way leading to its cessation.


(4) Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves

2. Right intention

intention of renunciation
intention of good will
intention of harmlessness


(5) Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

(6) Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character

(7) Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

3. Right speech

abstaining from false speech
abstaining from slanderous speech
abstaining from harsh speech
abstaining from idle chatter

4. Right action

abstaining from taking life
abstaining from stealing
abstaining from sexual misconduct

(8) Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

(9) Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

5. Right livelihood

giving up wrong livelihood
one earns ones living by a right form of livelihood

6. Right effort

the effort to restrain defilements
the effort to abandon defilements
the effort to develop wholesome states
the effort to maintain wholesome states

(10) Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it

7. Right mindfulness

mindful contemplation of the body
mindful contemplation of feelings
mindful contemplation of the mind
mindful contemplation of phenomena

(11) Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

8. Right concentration

the first jhana
the second jhana
the third jhana
the fourth jhana

(12) Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our afairs.