A good number of my friends are on meds, and without them they...ummm....it would be bad

I have tried them twice and didn't feel any different, I go through debilitating depressions occasionally and that's just how that is

The thing I found was ASK AROUND

SHARE AT MEETINGS

their are psychriatrists that give out meds like candy, avoid those, find a good one

Also read: "Change your brain, change your life" hokey6 title I know but this psychriatrist has done some groundbreaking work in the field, he started using a friend's like heart scanner to watch brains, and like took people he knew were bi polar, scanned, took anxiety, scanned, etc and what he found is "it's not all in your head", what he means by that is there is measurable and verifiable activity that occurs with each thing, anxiety affects this, ocd affects that etc

Do NOT let ANY member of AA talk you out of seeing a Doctor or meds if prescribed, for some reason AA has been peopled with an overabundance of stupidity when it comes to psych meds, I have seen incredibly tragic occurances when people were talked out of their meds, I even did it once myself and watched the poor idiot go into a full blown psychotic break panic attack in a meeting, thank GOD he was living on my couch and I was able to get him home and back on his meds

On page 133 of the Big Book of A.A. it says in part:

There is also an important piece of A.A. conference approved literature called "The A.A. Member - Medications & Other Drugs" that addresses these issues specifically plus issues of cross addiction. Some D.R.A. members carry  copies of this pamphlet with them to help educate others when this issue is brought up. Here are a few excerpts:

"...A.A. members and many of their physicians have described situations in which depressed patients have been told by A.A.s to throw away the pills, only to have depression return with all its difficulties, sometimes resulting in suicide. We have heard, too, from schizophrenics, manic depressives, epileptics, and others requiring medication that well-meaning A.A. friends often discourage them from taking prescribed medication, Unfortunately, by following a layman's advice, the sufferers find that their conditions can return with all their previous intensity..." "It becomes clear that just as it is wrong to enable or support any alcoholic to become readdicted to any drug, it's equally wrong to deprive any alcoholic of medication which can alleviate or control other disabling physical and/or emotional problems."

Not all antidepressents work for everyone. Try a different one than what you were on last time. I know they have really helped me.

Squirrel, I am on antidepressants, and am one of those who tried everything under the sun while I was drinking, and geeeeee.... nothing worked (LOL).

I do well on the right ones. For some it takes a go at a few different kinds to find the right one. (For example, SSRI's gave me blahhh sexual side effects, so we went a different route. SNRI's which include norepinephrine in their action, work better for me.) But this doesn't have to be painful, it is a learning experience. Some do get on the right one the first time. Some don't need meds but make other adjustments and get other therapies. At any rate, I am doing very well and able to maintain some semblance of the emotions I SHOULD be having, instead of the deep-fried version of an alcoholic brain that has had many emotion receptors zapped by years and years of poisoning and "crisping". Doesn't matter how long we stay sober, we never grow back gray matter, although pathways can re-route sometimes. (Mine didn't.)

Whatever a GOOD doctor says should get you going in the right direction. It goes without saying that you should share your using history, no matter how long ago it was, and I am quite sure you plan to do so.

No sense in staying miserable. And sober, nonetheless. That's why God has blessed us with the amazing plant life on this planet that can help us with all kinds of problems, from headaches to diarrhea to... yes,,, depression. (God has allowed us to create some pretty sophisticated labs too! LOL)

Get the help that you want and need to get, Squirrel. You are certianly not alone in this as a fellow AA, certainly not! And don't forget to inventory your FEAR and to keep that in check as you journey toward the right kind of help for your depression. Our fear can keep us from the solution to chemical imbalances, for those of us who suffer needlessly even when sober and working AA's 12 Steps.

Sending you well wishes and big hugs, and can't wait to see you come around, regardless of what the treatment is..... may not be medicinal at all... but either way, I'm here for ya', like many others!!

((((hugs))))
Joni

Aloha FS...good research!!  My depression of choice is dysthymia...turns itself on and then turns itself off.  Runs as long as it wants (cuple to three years) and then goes out
to lunch for a year or so.  I've been told that as the carrier gets older (that's me) it
tends to get fatal.   Hmmmm  I've had a long history of depression I know the thoughts
and feelings won't kill me and the near attempts I've had by my own will was just to
end the pain.  Alcohol 1 time.  Meds sure and I am chemically tolerant so the dosages
climb in order for me to display effect and the thoughts and feelings won't kill me an
the withdrawals from the meds exascerbates the thoughts and feelings.   It gets crazy
or has in the past and feedback from my wife as to my behaviors helped me to
take more responsibility to my response to dysthymia.

I've heard that depression is anger turned inward.  When I feel depressed I inventory
my mind, emotions, spirit and behaviors.  Like Rob I am also a rager (not like I use
to because I use spiritual principles and positive value systems).  I manage my anger
if I'm expressing it how and realistic and more.  I accept the consequences of anything
and everything I do when I'm in my evil twins get up.  Rage is a time bomb if there
are meds available because my body produces adrenalin when I rage and other
drugs in me combine synergistically and I become a threat to others just as if I
were booze laden.

I get more from working with a behavorist/psycologist...someone who can help me
manage my behavior as it manifest my depression.  I can and will change my
thinking and feelings when they get toxic because I can so I am no longer a helpless
victim to my depression.   I am responsible  depressed or not.

I won't get into the meds I use to be on but the best thing my neuro doc did was take
me off of all of them because I was always in overdose.  He told me I had to live
with the pain which was the best truth I was ever given.  So the pain became my
brother and a daily relative.  I can live with it somedays easier than others and I've
been doing it since 71.  I watch the "anger turned inward" clue very closely as it is
the most important one.  The program told me that I am the only one who can save
my own ass and I've kept the job.  Lots of fellows here speak about gratitude lists
and as simple as it sounds, for me it is one grand deterrent when I'm standing on
the edge of that black hole listening to the sucking sounds.

I'm in support anytime...

Secret squirrel, I had a fairly rough time with depression until somewhere between 3 and 5 years sober. It waned as I realized that I could use the third step and just not let my head get started mulling over the past.
John Bradshaw wrote that we can get addicted to negative emotions as they release powerful chemicals in the brain (dopamine, adrenaline, endorphins...) that are more powerful than heroin. This can cause us to become an internal drug addict. I knew that I was a "Type T" personality (risk taker). I've always enjoyed physically challenging sports (dirt bike racing, snow skiing, deep wreck diving, riding sport bikes...) but I didn't know why. I figured it out through a couple other programs. Several events happened to me, when I was a child, that cause me to be separated from my feelings. I walked around for a few decades numb in my body's attempt to shield me from emotional pain. I always had no reaction or delayed reactions to situations in my life. These delays caused me to have resentments as it represented unresolved issues, maybe where I felt victimized in a situation and didn't have the ability to deal with it in real time. Mulling over it later, I felt anger and shame and began belittling myself for not being able to stick up for myself and deal with these situations in "real time". I felt like I was not present, in the now, and the risky sports makes you "live in the now" and be present or else you'll make a mistake, get injured or possibly die. Nothing makes you feel more alive than a near death experience lol.

What I learned was that I needed to be present and take care of issues in real time (learn how to say no, set boundaries, end relationships when I need to, learn to make better choices) so that they didn't stack up for me to nash my teeth about later. The serenity prayer, acceptance, and the 3rd step all play a key roll here also. Most times our fears are unfounded and are fueled by a lack of faith, our perception is skewed and we're probably trying to victimize ourselves ( to release the internal chemicals) or we may still be involved in some slimy behavior that we need to work the 4th - 9th steps on, so that we can feel better about ourselves. All of this is about living in Today and living in the Now.

What else comes to mind is Diet, sleep, exercise, and good vitamins. All of these are essential to mental health. The number 1 treatment for depression is aerobic exercise as it releases endorphins which play a vital role in our mental health. Sugar and caffeine are drugs that should be eliminated from our diets, especially if we are having trouble with anger and depression (a double edged sword). I'm proud to say that I'm now 4 months without coffee and iced, and diet coke. I have a cup of either green or decaf tea in the moring. I'm working on eliminating sugar now. I've been taking a lot vitamins, and supplements since early sobriety. I was fortunate to have gotten into a fitness kick, in early sobriety, joined a gym, and picked up a great book, by Dr. Robert Haas called "Eat to succeed". I highly recommend it. He wrote and earlier book for serious athletes called "Eat to Win" and had decided to write a book for business types, entrepreneur, professionals etc... with the premise that your brain is a machine and you must feed correctly for optimal performance. I was starting my own business at the time (first year in sobriety) which I still have and it has afforded me a pretty spectacular life (Thanks Higher Power!). Anyhow, this book amazing because it dealt with the mind and body, which I needed help with. It was in that book that I learned about aerobic exercise being the #1 cure for depression (running, jogging, using a stair climber... for 40 minutes a day). It worked for me.

I also began taking a pack of vitamins (for my multi) and a few other supplements. Co-Q10 and L-Carnitine together gives you incredible energy that lasts all day. I found raw bee pollen also helped with my energy, mental focus, and feeling of well being. Eating three good meals at set times a day helped tremendously with my mental balance. Taking fast walks in the morning (aerobic-ly) followed by a session in my hot tub listening to jazz music is something that I've been doing for about 15 years. And while we are on the subject of music (and media in general), take a close look at what you're feeding your brain. Are you subjecting your feeble mind to negative messages in your music? Be honest. Are you watching the news and listening to talk radio? I turned all that crap off in my first year of sobriety when I heard people like Tony Robbins, Hirum Smith, Zig Ziggler (and every motivational speaker out there) tell me to cut out negativity in your life. If you want to be happy you need to be possitive and keep your thoughts and actions positive. Zig Ziggler says to "Hang up on bad news", if someone calls you and starts complaining, hang up on them lol. Turn the TV (especially the news) off unless it's a show about nature or light hearted comedy. Carefully scan your music (listen to instrumental is best). If you're listening to gangster rap and you feel depressed, guess what? Your mind is a big tape recorded, "Garbage in Garbage out" It regurgitates what every you put in it.

An finally, lack of sleep causes stress and depression. If you're not sleeping well, long enough, and on a regular schedule, then guess what? You're going to feel like ****. Find out why you're not sleeping well.
Is it Caffeine? Diet has a great affect. Are you staying up late needlessly? Sleeping Fox news on lol.
Are animals sharing a bed with you that wake you in the night? Sleep disorders are no joke and 1 in 3 probably have them. Get a handle on it.

So before you run off the Legal drug dealer, get your life in order, Eat, Sleep, and Exercise well.

Dean makes some incredibly important and valid points I have also found to be true.

The book I mentioned Change your brain, change your life was very very important to me, it addresses specific parts of the brain recognized by the symptoms you are experiencing, there are self tests, so you can see what part is affected, and gives you specific diet tips and exercises, and also gives you specific information to bring to your psychriatrist, I swear it sounds new age-y but it is sound science

OK what IS new age-y but I found the best description of being addicted to negativity was a film called "what the bleep do we know" now a good third of the film can be disregarded IMO but there are descriptions of how we get addicted to negativity that were incredibly illuminating, emotional receptors are the same receptors that drugs and alcohol affect, so we get adicted to negativity and then drink and drug to alleviate those feelings which in turn cause these feelings to increase, therefore increasing our dependence on drinking and drugging

The difference between sobriety and abstinence is with abstinence we focus on the symptoms caused by drinking and drugging, and in sobriety we focus on the symptoms caused by abstinence, which are what cause us to drink and drug in the first place, that is one of the biggest misconceptions about addressing drinking and drug use, is abstinence leads one to health, where in fact unless we deal with the symptoms caused by abstinence we live painful lives of quiet desperation until drinking, drugging or pills is necessary for our sanity, our quality of life is so bad we HAVE to return to drugs or drinking.

Learning about my thinking patterns , ie being addicted to drama and reading that book I mentioned is literally changing my life, everything Dean describes I have found to be true as well, it's why I don't take meds myself, and even getting a good working knowledge of yourself and the parts of your mind affected will give a good psychriatrist far more to work with, and if meds are called for, will give a much better idea of which ones to use, as different meds affect different parts of the mind, the book I mentioned takes a great deal of guesswork out of meds as per his studies using brain imagery while the patient is experiencing episodes, his work is truly groundbreaking and is just now beginning to be recognized widely in the psychiatric community.

I have found PAWS described below lasts until we treat it, not just 3-6 months, I have had it return after 7 years of sobriety when I stopped taking care of myself:

PAWS

Many of the problems associated with early sobriety do not stem directly from drugs and alcohol. Instead, they are associated with physical and psychological changes that occur after the chemicals have left our bodies.  When we use, our brains actually undergo physical change to cope with the presence of the drug in our body.  When we remove the drugs, our brains then demand more to satisfy the desire caused by the changes.  The extreme symptoms that we experience immediately after we stop using are called acute withdrawal.

Acute withdrawal, unfortunately, is not the whole story.  Our bodies make initial adjustments to the absence of the drug, and the major symptoms ease up.  However, the changes that have occurred in our brains need time to revert back to their original state (to the extent that they ever do).  During the period of time while this is occurring, they can cause a variety of problems known as Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome (PAWS).

All we addicts and alcoholics suffer from damage to our bodies and nervous systems from drug/alcohol use, accidents, and malnutrition. We may also suffer from chronic diseases such as diabetes and hepatitis, and we usually bring to early recovery a broad array of other problems. As one alcoholic put it, When I got sober, things didnt get any easier, but they got real ing clear!

Recovery causes a great deal of stress. Many addicts and alcoholics never learn to manage stress without alcohol or drug use, or do so only after many attempts at sobriety.  Our ability to deal with it depends on our willingness to take care of ourselves and maintain a healthy physical, emotional and spiritual lifestyle.  Repairing the damage to our nervous systems usually requires from six months to two years with a healthy program of recovery.  PAWS is the cause of most relapse in early recovery.

Symptoms

PAWS symptoms reach a peak from three to six months after we get clean. Any use of drugs or alcohol, even in small quantities or for a short time, will effectively eliminate any improvement gained over that time, as it will keep the brain from healing.  There are a variety of symptoms.  Not everyone will experience all of them.  Here are some of the main ones.

Inability to solve problems

Inability to solve problems leads to lowered self-esteem. We feel embarrassed, incompetent, and not okay. Diminished self-esteem and fear of failure lead to living and working problems. These all add to our stress, and the stress further exaggerates the other problems.  Six things contribute to this: trouble thinking clearly, emotional overreaction, memory problems, sleep disturbances, physical coordination problems and difficulty managing stress.

Inability to think clearly

Our brain seems to work properly only part of the time. Sometimes our head just feels fuzzy because of the changes that occurred in our brains while we were using. The changes take time to improve.  It is also due to the simple fact that we are trying to process a lot more information than we did before.  While using, we mainly thought about getting more, using, and turning off our brains.  Now we are considering the myriad things necessary to truly live our lives.  To begin with, it can be a bit much.

Inability to concentrate

Abstract reasoning suffers, and we find our minds, like a confused cowboy, jumping on its horse and riding off in all directions.  Also related to the reasons above.

Rigid, repetitive thinking

Thoughts go around and around in our heads, and we are unable to put them into useful order.  We have not yet developed the ability to channel our thoughts and concentrate on one thing at a time.

Memory problems

We may hear something, understand it, and 20 minutes laterits gone! This sort of thing complicates our lives in many ways. It upsets supervisors, annoys significant others, and makes us wonder if were losing our minds.

With memory problems it is hard to learn new skills and absorb new information. We learn by building on what we have already learned, and memory difficulties can make it very difficult (if not impossible) to do that. Again, these difficulties add to stress, especially if we do not understand whats happening to us. We may think, This sucks! I might as well be high.

Emotional overreaction or numbness ­

People with emotional problems in early sobriety tend to over-react. When this overreaction puts more stress on our nervous systems than we can handle, we react by shutting down our emotions. We become emotionally numb, unable to feel anything. We may swing from one mood to another. These mood swings may baffle us, seeming to come without any reason, and may even be misdiagnosed as bipolar disorder. If we have developed insulin resistance or diabetes as a result of our drugs and drinking, this can become extreme. (See H.A.L.T. below)

Sleep disturbances

Disturbed sleep is common in recovery. It may last only a short time, or a lifetime. Often, this depends on what we consider to be a problem. If we are night owls who used alcohol or pills to get to sleep in the daytime, we may discover that the only solution is to make significant changes in our schedule, and perhaps even in our occupations. Sleep deprivation stresses the body, prevents our minds from working well, and generally exaggerates any other difficulties we may be experiencing.

We may experience changes in our sleep patterns, sleeping for long periods at a time, or getting sleepy at different times of the day. Although these may persist, we are usually able to adjust to them. The important thing is to be willing to adjust. We may not be able to keep to our old sleeping habits.

Stress

Difficulty managing stress is the most difficult part of post acute withdrawal, and of early recovery in general. Early on, we may not be able to distinguish between low and high stress situations, because for so many years we managed stress by using mood-altering substances.

Worst of all, the other PAWS symptoms become worse when we are under stress, and this causes the stress to increase! There is a direct relationship between elevated stress and the severity of PAWS. Each amplifies the other.

At times of low stress, the symptoms of post acute withdrawal may lessen or even go away completely. When we are well-rested, relaxed, eating properly and getting along well with others, we seem to be fine.  It is easy to see how we can get careless at these times, and many a relapse has occurred when things seemed to be going just fine.

Abstinence

Recovery from the damage caused by our addictions requires total abstinence. Abstinence means avoiding drugs and alcohol completely, unless we are under the care of a physician who understands both addictive disease and pharmacology. This specifically includes herbal remedies which, in many cases, are just as powerful and dangerous as prescription drugs.

Understanding and recognizing PAWS symptoms

Because we are addicts and alcoholics, and because repeated relapses will eventually be fatal, we must realize that understanding PAWS is, literally, a matter of life and death. It is absolutely essential that we gain an understanding of post acute withdrawal, be able to recognize its symptoms when they appear, and know what to do about them. We must understand these things well enough that we are able to put them into effect even during periods when our addict instincts are telling us that we dont want or need to!

We need also to learn about PAWS, and means of controlling it, when our stress levels are low, in order to be able to prevent the symptoms or be able to recognize and manage them if they occur.

Stabilizing our episodes of PAWS

When we begin to experience PAWS, we need to bring it under control as soon as possible. Here are five steps that can help.

Talk!

We need to talk about whats happening, to people who will listen and not criticize us. In addition to badly needed support, it helps us to clarify our feelings, look at them more realistically, and helps us recognize our symptoms.  When we are in our own heads, our thoughts just go around and around.  When we force ourselves to tell someone else, we often find that it puts them into order and they begin to make sense.

Ventilate!

We need to express as much as we can about what we are feeling, even if we think it sounds dumb or irrational.

Get a reality check!

We need to ask someone if we are making sense not just in what were saying, but also our behavior. We must be sure our perception of what is happening matches up with reality.

Set a goal

What can we do right now to improve our situation? Taking action and changing things is our choice.

Think back

over what has happened. How did the episode start? What triggered us? What could we have done to reverse it sooner? Were there other options that might have worked better?

Self Defense

We are responsible for protecting ourselves from anything that threatens our sobriety, including anything that triggers post acute withdrawal symptoms. No one else can do it, because no one else can feel the warning signals. Learning about addictive disease, working a program of recovery, finding out more about PAWSall of these things reduce the guilt, confusion and stress that intensify the symptoms and lead us to relapse. If we learn to do these things, we will begin to accept our own needs, and learn to be firm about letting other people, places and situations push us into reactions that threaten our sobriety.

We must identify our own stress triggers. Then we must learn to change them, avoid them, change our reactions, or interrupt the process before our lives get out of control again.  If our Aunt Frizzy is blaming us for all the family problems, and letting us know it every chance she gets, we may need to avoid her for a while (a few years, a lifewho knows?)  If we find ourselves walking past the beer cooler too often in the store, or past a certain street corner, we need to recognize that, and change our routes through the store and the neighborhood.

Tools

Here are some things that will help us avoid PAWS, or control it when it sneaks up (which it will). They may be the most important things we will learn in the first few months of our sobriety. They are so important that we encourage you to print out this article, and to share it with others who may need it too.

Nutrition

With our organ systems damaged by alcohol and drugs, we were notand may still not beable to absorb nutrients properly. This, combined with our inattention to diet, has created deficiencies that we must deal with.  All active alcoholics (and most other addicts) suffer from malnutrition to one degree or another, and we may continue to feel the effects for months after adopting a healthier lifestyle. Malnutrition contributes to poor health, and poor health contributes to stress. Unless we consciously improve our diets and properly supply our nutritional needs, the poor eating habits that have carried over from our using days guarantee that we will continue to fail at getting the nutrients needed to recover.  Our bodies are repairing themselves, and they need the proper materials to do so effectively.

It isnt necessary to load up on stuff from the health food store. It is much better to spend all that money on good healthy food at the market (although theyll never tell you that at the health food store).  However, we should take a good multivitamin every morning with breakfast.  Yes, you will be eating breakfast.

Hypoglycemia the secret demon of relapse (H.A.L.T.)

Were tired and hungry. Its been a long day, and we wont be able to have dinner for a couple of hours. A candy bar is just what we need to pick us up and get us through. Forty-five minutes after eating the candy we are angry at our boss, arguing with our co-workers, suffering with tense muscles and a nasty headache, and life sucks again. Were thinking about using.

Has this ever happened to you? Then you already know something about hypoglycemia.

Our brains use glucose, a kind of sugar, for fuel. If our brains are completely deprived of glucose, we will die just as quickly as we would if our air were shut off. Fortunately, our blood carries glucose to our brain, and as long as our heart is beating we dont usually have to worry about its fuel supply. Usually.

Glucose is manufactured by our bodies from the carbohydrates that we eat. Carbohydrates (carbs) are a class of nutrients that include several kinds of sugars, pasta, bread, potatoes, and similar starchy foods. Practically all foods contain some carbs, but the most concentrated sources of them are sugars and alcohol.

In addition to fueling our brains, glucose provides energy for every cell in our bodies. Without glucose in the right quantities, our bodies just dont work right. The carbohydrates most easily converted into glucose are the sugars. This is why we like them so much. Our bodies recognize that they are a ready source of energy.

The problem arises when we are in need of food and our bodies get a big jolt of sugar. The sugar is quickly converted into glucose. The amount of glucose in our blood rises very quickly, and we feel a burst of energy. We may feel some mood alteration as our brains receive a huge jolt of fuel.

We just received a reward for eating some sugar.

The big dose of sugar on an empty stomach causes our blood glucose to rise rapidly. A center in our brain detects the rise, and signals the pancreas to produce more insulin to help our cells absorb the extra sugar, but it produces too much. The insulin causes us to burn the extra glucose rapidly, and our blood sugar comes down, but because there is too much insulin, our glucose levels drop too far. (In diabetics and people who are insulin-resistant the mechanism is different, but the effect is the sameor worse.)

Our bodiesand our brainsare now low on glucose. The brain is running out of fuel. Waste products build up in our muscles. Along with inefficient signals from the brain, this causes tightness and muscle tremors. Partial paralysis of facial muscles may make it difficult or impossible to smile. Our heads begin to ache. Thinking gets fuzzy. Energy levels drop. We push people away, if we dont scare them away. We may feel sudden bursts of rage, that seem quite reasonable.  We begin feeling sorry for ourselves.  .  We are HUNGRY, ANGRY, LONELY and TIRED.

The big catch? Most of us, in our addictions, knew all too well how to quell those nasty feelingsby using.  Poor mepoor mepour me a drink

Important Point: We taught ourselves to interpret the symptoms of low blood sugarhungeras needing to use.

So, how do we avoid the trap? Easy in principle, but it involves some attention, some learning, and some effort. Basically, we dont let ourselves get hungry.

Diet for Recovery:

• Three nutritious snacks each day,
• between meals and at bedtime
• Avoid Sugar and Caffeine

Meal Planning

We are trapped in a culture that tells us Three Square Meals A Day is the way to eat. Many of us interpret that as one round meal at breakfast timea doughnut, or bowl of cereal, and a cup of coffeeone rectangular meal for luncha sandwich and another cup of coffeeand one huge meal in the evening. Since these arent really spreading the fuel around too well, we fill in the low spots with candy bars and some more coffee. Our poor pancreas! For, in addition to all that sugar in fits and spurts, caffeine also causes blood sugar swings!

We really need to get this thing under control! Hunger produces stress. Blood sugar swings produce stress. Stress aggravates PAWS and, as we have seen, is extremely dangerous to our sobriety when combined with hypoglycemiawhich is caused by poor eating habits, too much sugar, and caffeine. Are we beginning to see a trend here?

Alcoholics and addicts in early recovery literally take our lives in our hands each time we plan our daily meals.

A quick word about diet:

Our diets should consist of a balanced mix of vegetables, fruit, carbohydrates, (such as potatoes, whole-grain rice, and dark breads,) protein (not necessarily meat), fat, and dairy products. A nutritionist can be a great help in the beginning, and there are thousands of books on nutrition and meal-planning that may be consulted. If we dont know how to shop and cook, now is a good time to learn.

The US Department of Agricultures Food and Nutrition page is a good place to begin.

StPeteDean wrote:

---

I knew that I was a "Type T" personality (risk taker). I've always enjoyed physically challenging sports (dirt bike racing, snow skiing, deep wreck diving, riding sport bikes...) but I didn't know why. I figured it out through a couple other programs. Several events happened to me, when I was a child, that cause me to be separated from my feelings. I walked around for a few decades numb in my body's attempt to shield me from emotional pain. I always had no reaction or delayed reactions to situations in my life. These delays caused me to have resentments as it represented unresolved issues, maybe where I felt victimized in a situation and didn't have the ability to deal with it in real time. Mulling over it later, I felt anger and shame and began belittling myself for not being able to stick up for myself and deal with these situations in "real time". I felt like I was not present, in the now, and the risky sports makes you "live in the now" and be present or else you'll make a mistake, get injured or possibly die. Nothing makes you feel more alive than a near death experience lol.

---

 Does it make any sense if I were to say that I am a CLOSET Type-T, and that my relapses consist of risk-taking adrenaline-rush near-death behaviors? Seriously, my alternatie drug itself in nothing but pure adrenaline release, heart beating out of your chest, and you are "functioning" (or so you think) at about 400,000 mph and about 26,000 rpm's. Perhaps I am acting out in my revolt against my dysthymic "dull spots" that last for years on end sometimes, or creating chaos in reaction to the "mood blunting" created by latent PTSD (another of my long time diagnoese) where my mind has said over and over "blunted will be the safest way"....

This stuff is pretty interesting, and where else would we be able to get a synopsis of the therapy and real life experiences with depressive disorders that so many of us have gained? This is quite valuable stuff IMO, and I am fortunate to be hanging around waiting to see my own psychiatrist today in about 2 hours. As I have mentioned before, this guy has seen it all at close to 30 years in practice, and is especially delicate with his prescribing. (Very small changes, and SAFE medications, sometimes in combinations like a finely tuned pot of chili.) He makes good use of every billable hour as well, through MUCH listening and a lot of talk therapy as well. He rocks and has kept me suckin' air for a good while now.

I will also add here that it is only when I am doing the work of AA Recovery that I get the full benefit of his mastery of the neurological aspects of the psyche. Goe swithout saying that me throwing a bunch of alcohol and cocaine in that big pot of gourmet chili, that things turn somehow "sour".

slugcat wrote:

---

its good for SAD seasonal disorder.

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I always thought SAD seasonal disorder was when my butt got big around Thanksgiving and Christmas from all those sweets and desserts

Spreading

A$$

Disease

 

huh, learn something new every day

Wow, the staying that there are no coincidences in AA really hits home.

I was a meeting today and a guy I know was sharing about how some guy in another region, 25 years sober, looked up to by everyone -- he was known as "Mr AA" -- committed suicide. Folks in that region are pretty flabbergasted. His take on that was that AA is about not drinking, it's not about other issues. Just couldn't help but think about this discussion on here!

Steve

I agree Steve, AA is about Sobriety with a capitol S, the ability to live a life serenely without alcohol, not mere abstinence, for all my carping about the steps, they are the bare begining, the building blocks if you will for a life that is happy, joyous and free.

The steps grow with us and come to mean more, and we grow inside them, and give us the tools to use, Aa and the steps are not the answer in and of themselves, they are the tools to find the answer of a life worth living without alcohol.

it seems a subtle distinction, but it's not, not really, it's huge, anyone who has bounced back and forth between misery and white knuckling, and misery caused by alcoholic destruction knows of what I speak.

-- Edited by AGO on Thursday 6th of May 2010 01:11:18 PM

Thanks Steve,

I had not read, well I did, but not really absorbed your earlier response to this Post.

It all makes complete sense now,

Thanks for taking the time to respond.....

In the DSMIV, it states that Depression that ends in a Suicide is in the realm of a Mental Illness......

One of my Sons is a Pychiatrist, dealing with severly depressed people, as well as many other very serious other  diagnosis....and then I have another Son that will be in Prison for almost the rest of his life, that suffers from a severe form of Schizophenia......

This has turned out to be such an informative thread, as it relates to everyone's take on this subject....very very interesting.

Take care, and hope everyone has a depression free day....
Love you all.

Toni

I was seeing a psychologist for a while after my divorce.  It was generally a positive experience, but I went into it with some AA experience behind me, and with a goal other than spending the rest of my life in therapy.  It was beneficial and I'd do it again if I needed to, but I had to set my own boundaries and make my own decisions about what to do and what not to do, including terminating the therapy when I felt we had reached an impasse, or as I put it at the time, had reached a level of misunderstanding to where we were no longer on the same page.

One of the things I dodged during that period was frequent attempts to get me on drugs.  Not overly pushy, but I had ADs and sleep-aids dangled at me, and I acknowledged they were an option but declined.  She could not have prescribed them herself, but would have sent me to her supervisor to eval and Rx.  As much pain as I was in at times, I was very aware of the necessity of the pain and experiencing it.  I used alcohol to cover up - or rather, postpone the pain of growing up.  I didn't want to do anything that would deprive me of the learning experience and growth that I needed.  I would have taken an AD before I would have killed myself (which I didn't want to do, at all) but not just to feel better in the moment. 

I know a lot of people who need the meds to survive.  My granddaughter DramaGoddess is one of them.  I would never tell anyone in that situation to not take their meds.  But one should always be aware of side effects, and have a way to check out their own thoughts.  I need this anyway just in sobriety - when my brain goes off on a tangent, I need to tell somebody about it, a reality check.  When you're taking powerful, mood-altering medications for depression or other conditions, you need someone close to you that is aware of this and to act as an "earth ground" so to speak.

Example: one of my friends in AA has battled depression most of the time I've known him.  He doesn't show it outwardly, but it's always there.  One time I saw him and he had just started taking Prozac.  I mean, like - he was on maybe his second or third day.  He was talking so fast I thought he was on meth, and babbling about how he's on Prozac but it takes two weeks to take effect and he knows it hasn't had any effect on him yet... I couldn't even get him to sit down and shut up.  Fortunately, his wife and soon after his doctor clued in to the fact that it was having an *immediate* and rather disturbing effect and yanked him off the stuff, which he sheepishly admitted a week later was a "fail".  But in the moment, he was totally unaware.

So here I am - having avoided the Rx AD, and I made it through all of the pain and transition.  I certainly had a ton of self-directed anger following my divorce, but that's another story.  It was old behavior - and it came back with a vengeance.  I am thankful it didn't cost me my life, my sobriety, or my sanity.  In the end, I had to acknowledge it.  Putting the blame on someone else for a problem like that is condemning myself to never resolving the problem, because that someone else is the only one who could ever make it right.  I had to learn that the hard and painful way.

Barisax

AGO- my old sponsor gave me a book about PAWS. It was really good thanks for posting about it. I was thinking about that, cause in the book teh poor guy got so stressed out with PAWS that he wasnt addressing that he got so bad he only had three options, suicide, drink or go insane. it scared me at the time to read it and it still does, because sometimes ive felt ive been getting on that scary road. Thankfully not got to that point though.

 May I please say - i dont want to be nitpicky but I totally disagree with the last sentence about diet - eating dairy is not required. i dont eat dairy products and i dont need to. in fact my health got a million times better when i stopped. Lots of people are made sick by dairy products.

-- Edited by slugcat on Thursday 6th of May 2010 06:44:46 PM

Hi Just Toni. yeh gees louise is good way to put it. i remeber i felt i was in a tunnel and no end in sight for a few years felt like that. People in the rooms and also outside kept telling me it would get better though, and thank goodness i was wrong and it got better. me too therapy and AA =fulltime work load. I am grateful too that i am so much more free of it . I know if i hadnt of had AA and outside help i would be dead. really needed to deal with that stuff as well as AA. Hugs back



-- Edited by slugcat on Thursday 6th of May 2010 07:03:12 PM

Came across this highly informative thread while pondering the subject of anti-depressant medications which came up in a couple of threads recently.

A really good discussion here.

It's worth a read for AAers afflicted with depression and those who are not but wish to be educated on a thorny problem involved in recovery in AA.

 

Wow, thanx a lot for bringing this back up, Tanin. There's a lot of useful info here. This is a serious discussion, and it seems to me like everybody who weighed in really had some knoweledgable input to the discussion. I haven't read them all yet, but Deans post makes so much sense. I've got to work on this sleep thing. It's fucking my mind and body up. I only get about 5 hours of sleep a day. I don't watch TV, I don't even own one. I wouldnt own one if somebody gave me one. I would give it to somebody else. But I do listen to NPR. I've been listening to talk radio since I was in my 20s. 

But my guitar practice is really keeping me from sleeping. I take breaks every half hour or so, check on the forum, maybe check some YouTube instructional videos. Then back to practicing. Till about 3am. Then, I watch and read more guitar stuff on the web, till about 5am. Sleep till 11am. Wake up, work till dark, then start the practice at 10pm, and do it all over again.

I usually sleep with NPR on the radio, but, starting about 2 weeks ago, I turn it off. Matter of fact, I haven't even had it on during the day lately.

so many things come into play when it comes to mental stability. Everything Dean wrote is true. I already pretty much knew it, but seeing it spelled out so clearly really confirms it. 

I started cutting back on the caffeine a couple of weeks ago, but I still drink coffee, I just mix it with decaf, like 2/3 decaf, 1/3 regular. But I think the sugar is like the worst. It's fricken evil. I never used to eat sweet stuff, but since I got sober, I started indulging in chocolate and candy and ice cream. And I've been feeling like shit lately. So, last week, I decided to cut the sugar out. And carbs. I think I might have shocked my system with all that sugar, and maybe I might be pre-diabetic. But I know if I quit the sugar, my body will heal itself. I actually feel better the last couple of days already. 

I need to get all of these things on track if I want to feel better. I'm not overweight at all, but I'm not an excersiser either. I do physical work during the day, I'm not a paper pusher, I'm a welder, but it's still probably not enough physical activity to get my brain to release the feel good chemicals that keeps you from feeling like shit. I'm gonna start working on all these things. 

Im really glad you brought this old thread back, Tanin. I knew you were good for something.

 

Nice experience had all of you very interesting discussion for a long time, may this is better place to share my own experience about depression. Depression has been a major factor in my life,To explain my depression through my own experience,deep sadness overwhelming sadness almost as if no other emotions exist just sadness like an empty hole ,feeling of inadequacy,with depression an other life is always wished i just wish i was like the rest of society,happy,living life as what i was meant to be,i would notice people enjoying there life with there friends and families,there ambitions,they seem to be average in my opinion but i was SO wrong and messed up,in my train of thought i just couldn't comprehend why i was not like that,which promoted the sadness 10 fold,of course with depression you only always want a way out but lack of motivation is also a factor,when the sadness hit you there isn't a thing you think about more than self sorrow which will kill the motivation of the plan of intentionally curing 1s depression which of course would bring me back to square 1 more sadness,when depression hits at its hardest life can be unbearable,there is episodes in my life when ive completely lost myself in depression,no concentration,no enjoyment you can almost say no living,just an empty vessel completely drenched with self pity,of course that is my experience with depression some are depressed about things entirely different from what i was. "Anna Gibbson"

Thank you Pappy! I hope so, i can drink anything from a glass of wine to a bottle of scotch (on a particularly bad day) and that is a fair bit for somebody

wow, not many of the original posters in this thread still around