Hey Brett,
We have many sayings and cliches, one of them is "take the cotton out of your ears and stick it in your mouth" in the beginning. New comers need to listen. Also there are beginners meetings which are suggested, for people in their first couple months of sobriety (no mater how long one has been attending meetings). I attended beginners meetings for the first 5 years to keep it real and fresh. In general, groups tolerate people sitting in for a meeting, who have been drinking, but they are in no shape to participate. Meetings are a place we go to learn how to stay sober, through various situations, how to work the steps, work with others... How much can a person who is drunk tell them about how to do that? That's why if someone who has been drinking starts blathering randomly at a meeting the chairperson will ask them to pass to someone else. AA is for people that are trying to get sober. There needs to be consideration for those people that are new and worked hard not to drink that day (or days, weeks) to show up for the meeting for encouragement.  How do you think that they would process someone who was intoxicated speaking randomly or a few folks doing that?  If someone continues to shows up drunk then they aren't trying very hard. They could go to  morning meetings, before they start drinking. And if they are drinking all day every day, then they probably need to be in a rehab, which is a good idea for people that are having a hard time quitting. If they wish to speak to someone while they are drinking then they can call the AA phone number and speak to someone to get there questions answered. And of course, this is a good place for someone to share and get feedback albeit it not in real time, but you are more than welcome here.

It would also help to understand that quitting drinking is not what AA is really about. Putting down the last drink is just the beginning, dropping off point,  or the entrance fee. Working the steps and changing your life, so that you don't have to drink (while helping others do the same), is what it's really about. We can only "white knuckle" our sobriety for a short period, so that's why it's so important to swiftly get a sponsor and get busy working the steps of the program, get involved in the fellowship, and work with others to perpetually keep you sober. Just showing up for meetings (drinking or not drinking) occasionally is not going to keep someone sober. Meetings aren't meant to convince someone that they should quit either. That "desire" should be present in the person when they hit the door. Oh sure there are  speaker meetings for people that are on the fence and need to hear stories that they can relate to, but if someone's been to a few meetings they should either have a desire to get sober or not. If not, then they can go and get finished with their drinking. "The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking".





-- Edited by StPeteDean on Friday 15th of January 2010 06:02:22 AM

Brett, for what its worth, I understand where you're coming from completely. Dean mentioned Beginner's Meetings, but people in my area just show up to meetings, whether its called this or that, so Beginner's Meetings in my area are just AA meetings, and I don't see a difference. I like your idea Brett, except for the image of a bunch of drunk people meeting for "sobriety". Like Pinkchip said, a bar would make more sense for that imo. But, a meeting that is strictly set up for Beginners, not just for namesake, that would be interesting and maybe helpful. It could be a regular type meeting or even a speaker meeting, where the chairperson/speaker has to have less than 2 years or something like that. I personally think there ought to be an "Under 30" group. We have meetings for gay folks, women, Adult Children of Alkies, even seen a few "Christian" groups which is kind of redundant, but whatever...As long as the message stays the same, and the purpose doesn't waver. Back when AA started an alcoholic who was down and out was just down and out, tough luck buddy. If someone found AA (and actually AA would often find them) back then they just took it any way they could, or else they were without. These days, it is different..it's not a fellowship of 50yr white males fresh out of the state mental hospital. Finding similarities and utilizing them (other than alcoholism) within AA seems like a terribly simple but perhaps useful thing and like I said, is being used with other subsets of alcoholics-gay alkies, women, etc...

Whatever it takes....conviviality based on something other than commiseration I think is only a plus. A young alcoholic walking into a room with 280 years of sobriety can be great because of the sum of ESH, but realistically, the room could have 8 years of combined sobriety and the message would still be the same.

Just this alkie's opinion.

Good feedback! you are right on with this answer, Dean.

Hey Brett! Just read an article on this on the web. Titled When a wet drunk shows up at a meeting!""condensed version.guy shows up at meeting ,can of beer in hands,AA wont let him in.Police arrived and memeber said yes they were going to let him in.People at meeting startd whispering,drunk left ,went outside had a seisure.Heard man tried to commit suicide.Released from hospital showed up at meeting same day,no one in room approached man,memebers talked about troubled relationships,whether or not to buy new car ,their job problems etc.So I go over to man and he says how sick he was and incomprehsibly demoralized and he wanted to stop drinking but he couldnt.few days later brought topic up at meeting,memebers said; common welfare of the group,,he doesnt want it,meetings should be about recovery issues,not some wet one who wont hear anyway.Guy says"I wondered if recovery issue was about divorce,lost job,new house or was it getting someone off booze long ennough to find a higher power that can help solve all those issues??His thoughts were primary purpose of AA is helping the still sick and suffering.,not just the cleaned up sober and 28 day new person that walks in the door.He says when i walked in the room i was not clean.,sober,or even detoxed.but they welcomed me and didnt ask me to leave.He says" have we become social; groups with membership requiring you already be sober to have free therapy session and discuss your issues of the day.Big Book says I must work with the sick and suffering if I want to stay sober.Obviously says he "i am not popular in my home group because i talk about traditions responsibilities of sobriety and welcoming and reaching out to the wet drunk I do what was done for me....' For me now,I am on the fence as I see both sides and the 3rd tradition "stating only the desire and that may be unmeasurable. I took my son to a meeting at another fellowship last week and he is a newcomer to 'program' but was very upset that someone was obviously not sober and falling out.He didnt feel that was condusive for his recovery!..I like some of the ideas approached above about meetings and things to do but each group is autonomous and may act according to their own group conscious. Great topic Im sure will remain debated.thanks for letting me share that without ,hopefully not violating any of our traditions......peace.

MikeF and Newcomer points well taken. MikeF i know that you've been around for quite a few 24 hours and that was a great post. But I've got to say that I've never seen anything like that happen and I'll go out on a limb and say that something like that is extremely rare and that there very well could've been extenuating circumstances involving said "wet drunk" and the group. I have, however been to less than a dozen meetings when a drunk person came and raised his hand. Most (if not all) of time the group let him speak and extended the same welcomes and phone numbers as they would any newcomer and that meeting became a 1st step meeting, as most do when a person acknowledges that they are there for their first meeting or having trouble staying sober. Typically this person, who was  enjoying the attention, spoke more than the 5 minutes that most groups suggest as a maximum, and are asked to pass. I've seen 3 of these folks get belligerent and demean the chairperson and be asked to be quiet, they continued and then they were  asked to leave. This, of course, caused a controversy in the meeting and the rest of the meeting became a topic similar to this one.  Who was right? Who knows. We never know, by looking at who walks in the door, who is going to get sober. Odds are 1 in 20 and all that I know is, what it took for this alcoholic to get sober, and it did Not include showing up to meetings after I'd been drinking. I did continually go to meetings for two years and in that time only accumulated 2 months of sobriety 4 times and one month 8 times. Lots of white chips too, but for some reason I knew the difference between when I was wanting to drink and when I was trying to be sober.

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Friday 15th of January 2010 05:27:25 PM

I'm six months in and a double-relapser, so I don't know sh*t, but I'll throw out my .02.

AA is gradually evolving to meet the needs of people who recognize their drinking problems earlier and earlier. We've all been to a meeting with a 16 or 17 year old kid that's been sent by a judge or a shrink and finally Comes To Believe. The newcomer isn't necessarily the "living-under-a-bridge-soaked-in-his-own-pi$$-and-vomit" bottom-hitter that the program grew around. I think I once read the term "higher bottom hitter" on this site. I hit my bottom lots of times, but was always resourceful enough to bounce-back and then keep drinking...until I ran out of bullsh*t.

I like the idea of a newcomer's meeting...with an old-timer chairing. The current guy who runs Hazelden said on TV recently that AA is so successful because of the sponsor/sponsee relationship, service to the group, and group unity. That's why I don't see the success in recovery of "drunk-talk". Sh*t, just the idea of those endless, pointless, rambling arguments on a barstool makes me wanna drink!

So my solid response to this question is expressed in both the Preamble and the Traditions, and I believe in most group's suggestions that if you're drunk you're welcome...but kindly STFU.

Peace,
Rob

i would like to make a simple point to DODSWORTH,i have lost a loved one to a drink driver and a very good friend as well to idiots who drive while drunk.If you feel so truly fortunate to be privy to your local AA group when 2 members brag about consuming whisky through their winshield wiper and filling up air balloons in order to render a breatho immobiliser useless,then the whole meeting should attend a room full of relatives who have lost loved ones through these idiots,(i bet nobody would have the courage to laugh then). BRETT.

Hey Robb!  YEAH i LIKE THAT TOO      Welcome but STFU!!

" Welcome but STFU!!"

Here! Here! as they say in the Houses of Parliament.

Have to say I don't mind listening to somebody who's drunk for a few minutes (at the Chairperson's discretion). Reminds me where I don't want to be. Guess though like I say the Chair should have the discretion to make the ultimate decision in a particular meeting as to "our common welfare".  For me there isn't always a black and white yes or no answer to this issue. If one drunk is allowed or starts to hog the limelight when there are newly (trying)sober people there - it can be alarming and distracting.

All I know is doing things 'my way' and droning on for hours & hours NEVER got me sober.

When I used the "two" ears God gave me, and the "one" mouth instead of the other way round was when I got to see results. I mean I had an answer for EVERYTHING ! Mmm........didn't manage to find the answer to staying sober on my own! 

Lots of love
Louisa x

Louisa - Two Ears, one mouth...used in that ratio. The first bit of sales-jabber I ever heard that made good sense to me then, more sense to me now.

Mark - That's beautiful. You can show compassion, a desire to help and to a degree some understanding for the folks collecting white chips like they're tiling their shower-stall and still you admit that you can't empathize with them. The wisdom to know the difference.

You're right...they clearly WANT "what we have" but something, perhaps "inability to be honest with themselves" or whatever is in the way. They "came", and hopefully someday sooner than later, in their own time will "came to" and finally "came to believe."

Peace,
Rob

brett wrote:

---

can somebody tell me what "STFU means? Is it what i think it is.

---

Probably. 

http://www.muller-godschalk.com/acronyms.html

 

Are there people out there who just want to share there thoughts but dont want to be called to (STFU)? Well that is what i have been called by certain people on this site.I people would like to go back and read all of my postings you will understand that i have not said anything out of place, i simply have challenged peoples ideas and thinking of how AA can change its perception(only slightly)towards alcoholics who are currently drinking.I didn't ask for climate change,or peace on earth, just that their be a meeting once a month for current drinkers.In one posting i was told that if i want to share my thoughts with current drinkers go to a bar,(Shallow at best but i wont tell you to STFU).Another posting states that the person doesnt want to listen while a drunk drones on for hours and hours (wont tell you to STFU)Well where is our bloody forum?People have already stated by there own words that there is only so much they will bear if a drunk wants to share at a meeting.What about if a drunk wants to keep coming back for months and months, will he or she be given the same entitlement to a forum or not?.What if they have the desire to stop,what if they cant stand to be who they are anymore and want change in their life.Will they be asked to(STFU).Im sure that if there was such a meeting held by AA that most alcohol affected people would conduct themselves with dignity and respect that deep down inside we so called drunks hold dear BRETT.

When I first got into recovery I was told to "sit down and shut up" several times and the
reason was I didn't know anything about recovery but I did know how to yap it up and
think that my brain was in gear at the same time.   Not even close.  I did a couple of
knee jerks on that request however they were right that I didn't know anything about
recovery and the program specifically sooooo I did the cotton routine for a long while
and got a sponsor at the same time.   

Just for today we have an accepted (by the membership and the homies) request, "That
if you have been drinking before the meeting please don't share into it but talk to someone
after the meeting is done."    It works real well.  

Guys with time will save your butt long enough, if you listen and practice, until you can
save it yourself.  I hang with the oldies because they have all of the tools to get this
done best.  Even old timers who have relapsed are part of my crowd because they have
information and experience about an alcoholism characteristic I haven't entered all the
way into yet.

If you're still drinking the alcohol is getting in the way in ways you need to learn about
from those who don't drink anymore.   

Hi Brett,

I'm a alcoholic that literally goes out into the streets, into the woods, and under the bridges (These are the kind of places my diease dropped me off at) to carry the message of AA to the still suffering alcoholic.   If they express a true desire to get sober and recover, I make immediate arrangements to get them into detox.  I don't take them to a meeting while they are drinking or even sightly intoxicated.  The meetings are not a detox center.  They are a tool for people who want to STAY sober, after the fact.

What I know for sure is that no one will ever get sober, while they are still drinking. 

I went to a few meetings while I was still intoxicated in the beginning.  Why was I there? Because I wanted to hear the grand wisdom of those with 20 plus years sobriety?  Nope.  Because I felt I might find a woman in the rooms that would understand me and accept me for the drunk I was?  NOPE.  I went because I knew I could get a free cup of coffee, and bum a cigarette from someone. 

So, that I could be a "part of", I would often try to share during the meeting.  So many times I was told, to STFU, in one way or the other.  Today, I fully understand and agree that a drunk doesn't need to be sharing in our meetings.  And the very last thing we need is a room full of active alcoholics having a meeting.  What are they going to share?  How to justify, rationalize and minimize a relapse?  Who has booze on sell this week?  I don't need to learn how to relapse.  I know how to do that just fine.  I also know how to stay sober, one day at a time, equalling 20 plus years of continuous sobreity.  I don't know anything about how to do this for 21 years.  The last thing I need is someone who can't stay sober for 30 days trying to tell me how to work this program. 

What we share is "what it use to be like (as a active alcoholic), what happened (when and how we surrendered), and what its like now (in sobreity).  All I had to offer back then is "what its like now, what its like now, and what its like now."  I was an attention seeking, grandios, know it all, that thought AA's should adjust the program and its meeting formats to my perspective (to use your own words).  In reality, I didn't know a darn thing about how to help myself, no less any other alcoholic.  In short, I was trying to get them to do things my way, instead of surrendering and doing things their way.  They were sober, and staying sober.  I was a alcoholic that took breaks and then resorted back to being me with my grand thinking and drinking.

Your feelings might be hurt because you have been told to take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth.  We say this because you can't hear or understand whats being said, while your own mouth is running.  We have what I refer to as the collective wisdom.  Any alcoholic that truly wants to stop drinking, can stop for 24 hours and show up at a meeting sober.  If they arn't willing to do this, then anything else we might ask them to do is for nothing, because they are still on the "Doing it My Way Program".

People are in our meetings trying to stay sober one more day.  I don't think we want or need to entertain those who are intoxicated at the expense of jeapardizing the needs of those who have surrendered, and are showing up sober. 

When a man is willing to show up sober, I will give him all the time and attention I possibly can to help him get another day.  When a man shows up intoxicated, or unwilling to do whatever it takes to put the drink down for 24 hours, what I see is a person who wants me to make a bigger investment in their sobriety than they are willing to make in it.  And I'm not willing to do that, nor do I have the time to entertain the insanity of it.

I hate to admit this, but they would most likely be told by me to STFU.  They have no knowledge of how to give this program practical application.  When they can show up sober for a bit, I would gladly call on them to share during a meeting.

What I have shared here is from a place of love and hope.  I would love to see you show up at a meeting sober and I hope that having done that, you will find what you need here to stay sober.  One day at a time.

John

Howdy,
The" only requirement is a desire to stop drinking ". Seems like I heard that somewhere
and it felt like it might be important to me. I was really glad for that cause what I brought
to the rooms of A.A. was nothing short of a dangerous mess. I probably should have been
put in a sound proof cage. Bill W. wrote " we should never fear their worst ".
I never figured alky's male or female were Oh so sensitive that their little feeling's couldn't
stand a little ruffling up.

Gotta Love It,
Toad

When I first came into AA, for some reason, I felt the need to share I was a therapist and I felt I was already doing service to some extent with my clients.... It was not one of my better shares at like 10 days sober at the time. I was told to take off the therapist hat cuz it obviously didn't get me too far with regards to my drinking and that my job had NOTHING to do with AA. All of this was true but I recalled feeling so hurt and offended. It wasn't even said in a mean way, but kind of a helpful one. In any case, my point is that I had to swallow that feedback even though I didn't really like it. So Brett, it is not that any of us here is directly telling you to STFU or go to a bar. It's the topic you brought up and the feedback you are getting. You as a person I am sure have much to bring to this board, the world, your family and to AA. The overriding purpose of AA is really to help us get sober and stay sober. Everyone here wants that for you... So, If you want that, it's yours for the taking. Nobody here is spouting their way is the best way. It's the AA way pretty much that everyone is discussing. I would hate for you to decide to go to a bar instead of a meeting if you felt you needed a meeting. But..go to meetings and come here with an open mind. Don't ask for feedback and then reject it. Part of this program involves humility and that does mean you need to listen to take suggestions just like I do and even Dean and Mike F do with 20 plus years sobriety each. This is just how it works. You are not devalued and we do care for you. I would personally like to read more about how you are trying to put together sober time, what you are learning from the program, and what you think keeps you sober. We are all here for that..not to be unique, but to unite in finding and practicing solutions to stop drinking. So basically, the consensus here is that a meeting for people who are all still struggling with relapse would not be too productive cuz the message would be tainted and there would be nobody to tell all the people how to be successful in sobriety. Yeah, there would be support, but no direction or solution. That is all. Keep coming back.

Peace,

Mark